InDesign & Leopard: Update IV

I’ve been keeping tabs with engineering regarding reported issues with InDesign on Leopard, and here’s current situation:

  1. There’s a problem hiding InDesign or other applications.
  2. There’s an intermitent problem copying and pasting vectors out of InDesign CS3 and into Illustrator CS3.
  3. The most serious issue is the Nav Svcs problem that can cause a crash when interacting with the file system via InDesign CS3’s Place, Export, Save, re-Linking etc. dialog boxes. This problem occurs far more often on PPC machines running Leopard. Some users experiencing these crashes have reported that trashing their InDesign Preferences temorarily removes the problem for them. Our testing has not confirmed that.

There is also a known problem using PDF printer from InDesign CS3, but that’s an Acrobat compatibility problem. That issue should be addressed when an update to Acrobat 8 is released.

In the case of items 1 thru 3 above, we have been pursuing these issues with Apple and are having to wait on their engineering teams for information on the source of the problems and the ways they can be fixed. We are not able to debug Apple’s system code to diagnose the source of these problems, so we have no choice but to wait for them to do the work on their end and let us know what they find.

14 Responses to InDesign & Leopard: Update IV

  1. Thanks for the update Tim — I’ve been experiencing item #3 quite a lot, so I hope Apple and Adobe find a way to get things to work.

    [ TC: #3 is a bit of a mystery for us at the moment, and it hits InDesign more than other CS3 apps because of the ways in which it interacts with the file system via the OS. As you are probably well aware, we usually don’t hear anything from Apple until after they’ve done their investigation and resolved the matter on their end. ]

  2. Pethr says:

    Thanks for the post. Now we at least know that Adobe knows:)

    [ TC: Yes. If you’ve been following comments on this blog, you’d know that we’ve been tracking these issues ever since we started getting bug reports and crash logs. ]

    Anyway I’m wondering how Adobe creates new version of any application when they need to wait every other week for Apple to debug issue with Adobe’ apps. Obviously no other application has problems with hiding under Leopard, is it even possible the problem is on Adobe’s end? You know cashing thousands of dollars not being able to solve (what appears to be) basic issues in months is a bit sad.

    [ TC: One of the many great things about sarcasm is that it’s cross-cultural.

    Perhaps I can help you understand the situation better by shedding some light on how this software development thing works. Adobe and other developers get developer builds of operating systems from companies like Apple and Microsoft. There’s no guarantee that what they send us is what they actually release at the end of the day, so it’s always a bit of a moving target. Second, applications interact with the system in different ways based on their requirements, which would explain why different apps can have different issues. Third, because we don’t have debugging versions of Apple’s OS code, we have to work collaboratively with Apple to isolate exactly where a problem with the OS exists and identify if it’s our problem or Apple’s problem. At the moment we’re waiting for Apple’s input based on all the information we’ve passed on to them. If the problem is just with our own code, we are quite good at identifying that and fixing it. Fourth, your suggestion that our engineers are too busy counting money to solve programming problems is way off base. We have separate departments full of bean counters whose job it is to do that very thing and shield our developers from that sort of distraction. Our developers remain blissfully unaware of corporate revenues until the company announces its quarterly earnings. We keep them busy coding new features and debugging. They remain docile and content primarily because of the endless supply of twinkies. I hope that clears everything up for you. ]

  3. pethr says:

    I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that your developers are swimming in money. All I wanted to say is that CS3 isn’t particularly cheap piece of software (especially in Europe) and that Adobe should try harder to support it. There are other issues as well – there still isn’t .1 update for Photoshop and InDesign available for my language version although international version has been out for over a month or two so when Adobe releases Leopard compatibility updates for Int versions I will still wait I don’t know how much longer for them. If ID and PS were not listed as Leopard compatible I wouldn’t be so sarcastic in my original post. I’m not using PDF printer so I thought I will be good to go only to find out about number of things that don’t work. Anyway I’m sorry about the original post, no hard feelings, I still love your products and all the work you do over there.

    [ TC: Hi Pethr, thanks for the follow-up note. I can assure you that we’re working very hard to make sure that Leopard is fully supported and that the applications run correctly on that OS. The bottleneck right now is really just our having to wait on Apple to tell us exactly what the OS is doing when the Hide and Nav Svs problems appear. I will look into the plans for the Intl. versions for you and let you know what I learn. ]

  4. Jake says:

    Tim, thanks for the info. I’ve been itching to install Leopard and take advantage of certain features, but can’t take the chance since these issues might affect my business of which CS3 is a key part.

    I just want you to know that even the smallest scrap of information is useful so that we can have some idea what the latest news is and how soon we might get to a solution.

    No bit of information is too small, so please continue to pass along _anything_ you hear.


    [TC: It’s a common practice for users to wait a while before upgrading their work machines to the newest OS for the simple reason that it’s normal for there to be some bumps in the road. I myself have yet to install Leopard on my work Mac for that very reason. I have colleagues who have done otherwise and are running Leopard and dealing with any surprises as they come along. I’ll be posting any new news on these issues as soon as I receive it.]

  5. Scott Citron says:

    Despite these nagging problems I still don’t regret making the Leopard switch. If you’re waiting for Adobe to make ID bullet-proof on Leopard, you’re missing out on a great OS.

  6. Peterfri says:

    >The most serious issue is the Nav Svcs >problem that can cause a crash when >interacting with the file system via >InDesign CS3’s Place, Export, Save, re->Linking etc. dialog boxes.
    I have had this problem, too. But since 4 weeks I had no Indesgn_crash anymore: At first I deleted the prefs, then the Adobe font cache (with Font Explorer) and then most important I made the dialog boxes for placing, saving etc. smaller (not!!! the entire screen). And now it works. I use a PowerPC G5, 1,8 single (2003).

  7. Dea says:

    Hola, Tim. Tks for the information! Very useful this blog!

    Could you help me? I have the Indd v5.0, and downloaded the update to v5.0.1. But when i tried to install it, the information was: “i cant find the application to update”. But Indesign is here! i have Indesign cs3 installed here! Why the update cant find it? Can u shed some light?
    Thanks for the help!

    [TC: Hi, Dea. What’s the build number of your InDesign? If you need to learn how to find it, see my earlier blog post on the subject.]

  8. amir says:

    And about the issue of disappearing shortcuts?

    [TC: the Hide shortcut issue is also being pursued with Apple.]

  9. Mike Bowen says:

    i went into ~/library/caches/adobe indesign/version 5.0/indesign recovery and deleted the temp file. No more issues so far.


  10. Timo Schulte says:

    Hello there,
    finally i’m in the boat. I had Nav-Svcs whole day long. By the way, it’s no name for a bug.It is impossible to spell it.
    Annyway, we are 3 in the office with 10.5 & cs3. 2 of them are doing fine, it’s just me having nav-svcs. And it came form one day to another. without installing anything.
    it can help to print, create a printer template and cancel the print. An other user told the workarround with the save as pdf option. Maybe there is a way in the windows???
    I made a new install with 10.5. It changed nothing. many month with leopard were ok. Now there is no way back.
    We need to get informations from apple. We need to know if there is a fix in the near future. How long will it take. I guess I just need to install 10.4. And throw the 10.5 out of my window.

  11. OK, I have joined the InDesign problem with Leopard family. I had to revert to Tiger and it took me almost a day of up and down hassles. Please. please can we have an idea of when this is going to be fixed – i know Apple are tight lipped about this type of thing but it is a very serious problem costing thousands in lost production time and heart medication. Any light you can shed will be very much appreciated ….Thanks in advance.

    [TC: Hi Stephen, I feel your pain. I have put all of my own Leopard migration plans on hold until this issue is fixed. I wish I could give you some kind of prediction, but I can’t. I’m rather desperate to know myself. As stated in earlier posts, what Apple releases what they want, when they want, and we don’t know what fixes are being delivered until they make a public announcement. In the case of the Nav Svcs issue, it’s a non-trivial fix. The code in question requires a significant re-write (so I’m told). Our teams are pushing on Apple as much as they can for this fix, but we aren’t given any dates and details by Apple.

    At this point, the best thing to do is complain directly to Apple, let them know that Leopard adoption (i.e., sales) is being delayed by this issue, and how much pain, suffering, and heart medication it’s costing you. I suspect that’s a good way to increase the size of the blip on Apple’s radar. Or, thousands of annoyed designers could march on Cupertino. ;^)

    For my part, I ping our developers regularly to get any updated information they might have, but Apple isn’t telling us very much at this point. I wish it were otherwise. I’m camping out on Tiger until the day I know that the Nav Svcs issue is fixed, because I can’t afford to take a chance on encountering that problem. I’d like very much to be able to demo InDesign and InCopy on Leopard right now, but I can’t do that as long as this problem exists. As stated before, many users run ID on Leopard without incident, others seem to reduce or eliminate the problem by uninstalling Version Cue. I, however, am choosing to wait Apple out on this one and not take the chance of running into this problem, because I have to run InDesign reliably every day I’m at work.

    For what it’s worth, as soon as I hear something meaningful about an imminent fix–something that’s not confidential information–I’ll post that news up here, and include plenty of exclamation points. That’s all I can do at this point. I wish I had more for you, but I don’t. ]

  12. Riiight.

    on 5.0.1, I had occasional open/place crashes but at least my Indesign started.

    I just updated to 5.0.2, my Indesign crashes at startup (“The appication Indesign has unexpectedly quit…”) . Argh. Does this mean I have to do a clean install back to Tiger to get some work done?

    Btw – I don’t even have version cue installed. At all.

  13. Darren Scott says:

    I have had CS3 since its release running on leopard 10.5.2 the only problem I have (which is very annoying) is the [Hide] problem, once you hide a CS3 app, you cant reopen the app and have to force quit it! Is there a work around for this issue until it is resolved!

  14. Ed says:

    I have problem #3 on a daily basis with a 2.4GHz MacBook Pro on Leopard 10.5.2.

    Since Indesign is the only program with this problem my conclusion would be the source of problem is at the Adobe side – not Apple’s. So Adobe should come up with a fix. Soon.

    [TC: Hi Ed. I think you should contact Apple immediately, because they’re under exactly the opposite impression. They think it’s a problem with Leopard’s NavSvcs code. I’m sure they’d be both eager and pleased to learn they’re mistaken.

    As it stands right now, Adobe won’t be coming up with a fix, because the problem has been identified by Apple as being in Leopard. The fact is that InDesign is not the only application that has this problem with Leopard. Some Leopard users encounter this problem, but most do not. It’s also the case that–based on our investigation of the issues with Apple–InDesign is doing everything it’s doing in these scenarios within Apple’s guidelines. In some ways we’d almost prefer it was InDesign’s problem, because then we wouldn’t have to live with Apple’s schedule for delivering a fix. However, because that’s not the case, we have no choice but to wait for Apple to address the problem in an upcoming update for Leopard.

    Check out the comments in the post entitled Leopard Leap to learn about a workaround that appears to have worked for some users to prevent the crashes from occurring.]