InDesign & Leopard: Update VI

Upon further review, the people working on the Nav Svcs problem think that there may be something to the strategy of uninstalling Version Cue if you can.

Among the problems we’ve identified and reported to Apple is hanging behavior associated with Spotlight
while the system was sending off file system events in response to the contents of the hard disk begin updated.

This hang later seemed to lead to repeated crashes in the InDesign dialogs.

Uninstalling Version Cue would significantly cut down on the number of such system events being posted and therefore cause the environment to be more stable.

So, from our perspective then it appears worth a try for those of you experiencing the Nav Svcs crash problem on Leopard to unintsall Version Cue to see if it reduces or eliminates the crashing behavior in those dialogs. If it does, please let us know up here on this blog.

28 Responses to InDesign & Leopard: Update VI

  1. Russell brown says:

    how do we uninstall vc ( on mac an pc?)

    [TC: If you launch the installer off the CD, you’ll get uninstall options.]

  2. garrit says:

    Do you think this is a problem that is going to be fixed, in the next couple of months, 2, 3, 4???

    I mean there are thousands of people in the same boat as I am.

    Graphic Designers that are depending on these two programs to work together seamlessly… So far this has cost me a lot of time and money. And, I don’t want to “jerry rig” my programs for a quick fix.

    It’s like we can’t get the doctor a sharp scalpel, but people want surgery…

    Anyway, thanks for your updates on the problem. I know it’s not your fault.

    [TC: Hi Garrit, believe me, I feel your pain. I can’t speculate publicly about when I think Apple will deliver a fix. As stated in my blog post, all I can say is that progress is being made. Ultimately, though, Apple determines when fixes get rolled into their dot releases for Leopard. We’re doing our best on our end to let Apple know the importance of the Nav Svcs issue to InDesign users, and are giving it a very high profile in our technical communications with Apple.]

  3. glenna says:

    I left Version Cue out of my install of CS3 because I found it to be cumbersome in CS2. I am a Power PC user and am still experiencing constant crashes from the Nav Svcs problem. Maybe an isolated incident, but thought I would share.

  4. Chip Cullen says:

    Just downloaded and installed 5.0.2. The hide bug didn’t get fixed – any idea when that issue will be addressed?

    [TC: I’m on the road right now, but trying to get an update on what’s in 5.0.2 and the known issues with Leopard.]

    [TC: You can find the Read Me here: here. The problems with Leopard aren’t fixed in this update, because those issues have to be fixed in an update of Leopard. I can’t tell you when those issues will be addressed, because I can’t make announcements for Apple.

  5. Matt says:

    I’ve found that if I open a document in InDesign, then quit the application, restart and open the document again; the hide feature works.
    I was displaying the same symptoms as most with the upgrade to leopard. The 5.0.1 fix appeared to compound the issue, however the gremlins in my machine worked the issues out. The 5.0.2 patch has brought the crashing on place, export and open, again.

  6. Tony Seddon says:

    I’m finding that Hide (with the 5.0.2 update) works fine if you access it via the menu with your mouse, but not if you access it using the keystroke shortcut. I’m not sure if this is relevant or not, but presumably the way the application interacts with the system is different for the two input methods. Either way, I’m not experiencing any problems with crashing or any other major issues. This is on a G4 Powerbook.

  7. DrWatson says:

    With 10.5.2 available, can you tell if the InDesign issues are fixed? John Nack pointed out that Photoshop and Lightroom compatibility is improved, but I found no comment related to InDesign and 10.5.2 so far.

    [TC: 10.5.2 doesn’t contain fixes for the NavSvcs problem. Apple is working on it, but has yet to deliver it.]

  8. Scott J Miller says:

    Just applied the 10.5.2 update — still no joy. At first, it appeared to have worked, but after placing several files, I got the crash. It’s crashed several times over the space of four hours.

    It’s especially bad because once it crashes, InDesign can’t usually be relaunched — ‘it unexpectedly quits’ while launching, and a restart is required to get things working again.

    This is basic functionality that’s simply not working for many people, and both Leopard and InDesign CS3 are on their 3rd version since release. Leopard has been out for almost five months, and certainly Adobe had access to the beta releases months and months before that. Stop pointing fingers and get it working.

    Thanks for letting me rant.

    I have found that not using Spotlight in the Place dialog seems to cut down on the number of crashes. This is not an ideal workaround, but it seems to help.

    My system is a G5 Dual 2.7, clean install of Leopard with no migration of prior accounts.

    [TC: As explained in an earlier post, although we receive pre-release builds from Apple, we can neither debug their software nor do we necessarily receive the build that they actually release. Apparently I need to repeat the statement that we cannot fix issues in Apple’s OS…only Apple can do that. We have been working directly with Apple since the release of Leopard, but we can’t force them to fix anything, and we can’t dictate when they fix things. So, I’m afraid the finger-pointing continues…and will continue until Apple delivers a dot release that includes a fix for Leopard’s issues with InDesign.]

  9. Casa says:

    There´s been an Update on Leopard, at least here in germany, yesterday.
    About 300MBs should fix the problems, shouldn´t it?

    Tim, any info weather it really does fix the Indesign problems?

    Thanks for keeping us informed!

    [TC: Casa, the latest Leopard update does not fix the issues particular to InDesign. My understanding is that it fixes some problems with Photoshop, but the InDesign issues remain open. You can find an article about the update here.]

  10. Kara says:

    I was wondering if there is something that triggers the Indesign + Leopard crashes.

    [TC: Yes, unquestionably.]

    There are 3 of us in our office with InDesign and Leopard [all legal copies]. All 3 with the same work load, same knowledge of the programs and different functions and all from the same software family set. 1 person has no problems, 1 person has problems every once in a while and then 1 person with daily issues.

    It just seems inevitable for the 1 person that has had no problems to be expecting it to crash any second. How sad.

    [TC: Because we don’t have the means to debug Leopard, we can’t isolate the cause on our end. From what I’ve heard from engineering, it sounds as though Apple has identified the problem. It’s likely due to a combination of factors that exist on some systems but not others. As mentioned several times up here, it’s far more prevalent on PPC machines than on Mactel boxes. It may also have something to do with InDesign and Leopard’s interactions with Version Cue. Whatever the case, we’re doing all we can to emphasize to Apple the importance of getting this problem fixed in an update to Leopard.]

  11. Scott J Miller says:

    Has anyone reported success at lessening the problem by uninstalling Version Cue?

    I’ve seen the suggestion a few times (including in this thread), but haven’t really heard any follow-up on whether or not it helps.

    Thanks for keeping us updated — I at least feel a little better knowing the problem is being actively pursued!


  12. Scott Bruno says:

    I have the NavSvcs problem.

    I have the InDesign Hide problem (or alternatively, if I minimize the window and go to the finder, sometimes I can’t wake up InDesign again and have to force quit & restart.)

    The latest glitch: if I’m working in InDesign and click on the Finder, InDesign will suddenly pop back up to the front (ie become active again (and again (and again))).

    I’m getting no joy from InDesign CS3 and Leopard…

    [TC: Sorry you’ve got bad Leopard karma, Scott. We’re doing all we can to exert pressure on Apple to get fixes for both of those issues.]

  13. mpmchugh says:

    I was able to stop the InDesign crashing by first installing this patch for Version Cue from the Adobe site:

    I then ended up uninstalling it completely, since I never use it anyway.

    In any event, the InDesign crashing I was experiencing on Saving or Saving As has stopped.

  14. sholby says:

    A workaround to this issue was posted to a couple of other places. It’s crazy, but it did solve the problem for me, on a PB G4:

    The trick is to go to PRINT, click on the PRINTER button and then do a SAVE AS PDF from the pull down menu. A Save window will come up, you can then just Cancel your way back and all NavSvcs issues disappear.Saving, exporting, placing images all work without a hitch.You just have to remember to do this first thing in the morning!
    It seems like accessing the finder this way solves the crashing issue.

    Hope this helps someone else!

  15. Tazintosh says:

    There is something I do not understand clearly… All CS3 Suite works well for exporting, opening windows etc — except InDesign —. All other company apps I know works without a problem. For only one application, it’s an Apple problem? ok ok so, we’ll wait again… thanks Adobe.

    [TC: All of the CS3 apps could potentially have this problem with Leopard, but InDesign’s interaction with the file system, in tandem with Version Cue it appears, puts a heavier load on the OS routines in question. Apple changed the NavSvcs code in Leopard and this problem appeared. Only Apple can make the changes necessary to fix the problem.]

  16. Clyde says:

    I have no problems with CS3 except InDesign – it starts to boot and then crashes “serious error”

    Running Leopard 10.5.2

    Thought I’d add this.

    [TC: Clyde, you can contact our Tech Support group and get free support for this issue. I’m told that if you can’t launch, then it qualifies as an installation problem. ]

  17. TK says:

    It seems sad that the very industry (design/printing) that basically helped build Apple and support it through the good and bad times is getting ignored.

    I’m tired of all the itunes, iphone, i this i that. As a graphic designer I have supported Apple all along, but now it seems we are being left behind. I’ve never waited this long to upgrade an OS system before.

    Adobe has done a great job in packaging all the design tools one needs into a comprehensive suite. I use InDesign everyday and can’t afford to be tinkering with crashes while trying to meet deadlines and keep clients happy. This is how I earn a living for my family.

    Apple needs to work with Adobe and fix this problem ASAP in the next upgrade!

    Adobe thanks for the great products hopefully Apple will help us all soon.

    [TC: For what it’s worth, TK, Apple is actively working with us. I, like you, am of the opinion that the fix cannot come soon enough, and it ought to be important to Apple to get this sorted out for its creative customers. I do believe that’s the case, and the issue is certainly not being ignored within Apple.]

  18. AJ says:

    I’ve annoyed 2 clients for being late now, because of these crashes.

    Any news on the 10.5.3 update?

    [TC: AJ, no news that I can discuss. Only Apple dispenses information on the timing of their updates. What I can tell you, though, is that it appears highly unlikely that all of the three NavSvs crash scenarios that we’ve identified would be fixed in the same release. We’ll have to wait for 10.5.3 to see if anything relating to the NavSvcs have been fixed. In the meantime, read the comments on the post titled Leopard Leap to learn one user’s workaround to prevent crashes.]

  19. alan says:

    10.5.3 came out today. Has anyone tried it yet?

  20. Mike Charbonneau says:

    So far, so good. One day with no crashes and hiding!

    [TC: Hi Mike, I’ll be surprised if you see the Hide problems go away, but it’s possible 10.5.3 might reduce the number of crashes.]

  21. Mike Charbonneau says:

    Well, I had one full day with no problems and the ability to hide InDesign at will. But, today is another day and the hiding issue has returned. Sigh.

    {TC: Mike, the Hide problem was not addressed in 10.5.3, just one of the Nav Services crashes.]

  22. Mike Nyman says:

    I was having trouble with Photoshop CS3 crashing in Leopard 10.5.2 and 10.5.3, and I came across a discussion forum on the Apple Help Site ( that led me to removing EPSON CX7300_CX7400_DX7400.ds from Library/Image Capture/TWAIN Data Sources/ . Removing this file solved the problem.Hope this may help some of you.

  23. Jeff Halmos says:

    Still the hiding issue in 10.5.4. Haven’t yet been able to get the app to not appear after using another app though. I’m able to use ID without force quitting after many different scenarios in 10.5.4.

  24. James says:

    Running 10.5.3: Just updated to CS3: No Version Cue: And just had the hide problem described above by J.Halmos. ID just disappeared, i think switching between apps in spaces. All indications pointed toward ID being open and running (no error windows) but any way I switched back to ID, nothing would get it back. Like it was permanently hidden.
    Had to force quit. Haven’t had the NavScvs crash yet (knock on wood). The Hide/Get Back problem has not been discussed that much here, is this problem not as wide spread?

    [TC: It hasn’t received as much attention probably because it’s less debilitating. This is the only issue I’ve experienced on Leopard, though.]

  25. James says:

    Follow up:
    Updated to 10.5.4.
    Less than 72 hours on Leopard and CS3.
    Just had my second Hide Issue crash. Same description as above, this time it occurred upon opening a file via double clicking icon from finder, on a external drive. ID “blinked” on then went into permanent hibernation until I quit (did not have to force quit this time though). Strangely it doesn’t have anything to do with the actual “hide” command. It just seems to hide itself, and won’t return.
    Seems strange. CS3 is really great though! Nicely refined! Well done Adobe!

  26. ugo says:

    not sure if this problem is exclusive to tiger (10.4.X) as it does not appear in Leopard (10.5.X) but ID3 will not go away. It will keep popping up as the front window…doesn’t hide.
    Latest update to 10.4 seems to be hit or miss with fixing the Nav Services issues.
    I have only read one reference to the ID3 pop-up issue, is anyone else exp. this?

  27. Judy says:

    I have been using ID for a year now, suddenly I am getting crashes when I try to move any type of box. I select it, move it, crash. I have upadated to OSX 10.5.4, and updated ID to 5.0.3. No help. Anyone have any ideas? I have never been able to Hide ID…

    [TC: Judy, first try deleting your application preferences. You can do that by holding down cmd + option + ctrl + shift immediately after launching ID. That will give you a dialog box asking you if you want to delete your application preferences. If that doesn’t work, then contact tech support. There’s definitely something wrong there.]

  28. Brandi says:

    Just wanted to thank you. So far, so good on you deleting the prefs idea. (10.5.4 and 5.0.3)