The Leopard Leap

I know I said otherwise earlier, but I changed my mind…I decided to test Leopard on an external backup version of my hard drive to see how well it played with InDesign. After several days of running InDesign without incident off the Leopard drive, I finally decided to upgrade my main machine to see how it went. So far so good…

23 Responses to The Leopard Leap

  1. DrWatson says:

    I’m running InDesign CS3 (as the rest of the CS) on an freshly installed MBP 2.4 GHz, and it runs smoothly. Every now and then, InDesign can’t be hidden by pressing cmd-H, so far I have no idea why it works fine one day and doesn’t the other day (behaviour even changes within one day, no matter which other applications are up and running). But so far InDesign never ever crashed (which it did quite frequently on another machine, that was updated from 10.4 to 10.5.x rather then cleanly installed).

    [TC: It’s an interesting issue, because it doesn’t afflict everyone. I don’t know what, exactly, causes the problem, but whatever it is, there are are environmental factors that contribute to its appearance.]

  2. Dan van Loon says:

    Doc Watson may have something. The notion of a clean install of 10.5 rather than an upgrade from 10.3 or 10.4 might be part of the secret. On my Intel Macbook, which came with Leopard, I have NOT had the IND/10.5 nightmares I’ve experienced on my G5 iMac where I upgraded from 10.3.9. Can others testify to this experience?

    Then again, it may be that, as we’ve all read, the problem is less of an issue generally on Intel Macs. In any case, those of us who are afflicted are patiently waiting for the ultimate solution.

    Tim… just out of curiosity, is there a way for us to see what percentage of registered users are having the problems described on this blog and others? Would Adobe share that info which they must have?

    [TC: We have no way of knowing with any real accuracy what percentage of Leopard users are encountering this problem. Our most objective data comes from crash logs that are sent to us via the internet. After that it’s the anecdotal reports that arrive via tech support. It’s probably possible to extrapolate from that data and make some kind of very rough estimate, but it would just be a guess. The most important thing is that Apple knows it’s a significant issue, and that it’s preventing many of their creative users from moving to Leopard or buying new machines with Leopard to run Creative Suite.]

  3. Scott J Miller says:

    I performed a clean install of Leopard hoping to alleviate the constant crashing when accessing the Place/Open/Save/Export dialogs. I installed Leopard, then CS3 Design Premium, all automatic updates, and nothing else. I still experience the InDesign crashes.

    The hiding issue is only intermittent for me, and an annoyance, certainly, but I could live with that if only InDesign didn’t constantly crash while trying to access files in the Place dialog.

    Here’s hoping the upcoming 10.5.3 has the fix.

  4. Kim says:

    The clean install doesn’t make a difference to this particular issue. I have run a clean install on 5 separate G5’s in a studio environment – and we all experience the “Nav Services” crashing with Open/Save/Export/Place dialogues.

    But on my Intel MacBook Pro, I performed an “upgrade” from 10.4 to 10.5 – and this machine has no problems. We also purchased a new iMac running 10.5 – this also has no problems.

    So I think the issue is more to do with the hardware – crashing seems to only occur on G5’s for us.

    We have found 2 workarounds – only using File->Open to open jobs rather than double clicking in the finder, or another solution is to create a new blank document in InDesign, save this to your desktop – and keep it open (or minimized) while you work on other jobs. Doing one of these seem to then allow Save/Place/Export dialogues without any crashing.

    I’m not sure why these work – but they are quite frustrating workarounds – I often forget to do them until InDesign crashes. If only there was some sort of Applescript or something that could tigger a new document/saving/minimizing – each time InDesign is launched.

    Kim

  5. DrWatson says:

    In the meanwhile I also performed a clean install of 10.5.2 on my PowerMac G5, and it really appears to be a matter of PPC vs. Intel rather than clean install vs. upgrade. InDesign CS3 (fully patched) crashes quite frequently on the G5, as well as showing all the other problems mentioned in the cloud (“hide issue” or applications stays hidden once it is successfully hidden – now this is really annoying!). Nevertheless, there’s no apparent pattern (to me, at least) which action and/or which environmental factors will bring down InDesign. This is frustrating and I’m hoping for 10.5.3 to fix this rather soon. I also hope that CS4, which probably is under construction for some time now, may circumvent the whole issue (I still don’t get it, why this actually _IS_ an issue at all) somehow.

    [TC: DrWatson, I doubt a future version of InDesign is going to do anything any differently, because it’s playing by Apple’s rules. The issue is with Apple’s Leopard code, and only they can fix it.]

  6. because it’s playing by Apple’s rules.

    Please allow me to disagree here: Adobe decided that it somehow was a good idea to roll out their own window-classes that look like nothing else on MacOS X and behave completely different. All the palettes are custom jobs and the Open/Save dialogues do some proprietary mojo as well. I find your position “It’s all Apple’s fault” hard to believe, when your product is the only one so horribly broken. Photoshop works just fine. Heck, even Microsoft Excel v.X from 2001 has no issues with the navigation services on my G5.

    By the way, this is what a crash looks like on my end:

    http://www.jenga-page.de/diverses/navservice-crash.png

    Note the “Always Save Preview …” option visible twice in the dialogue.

    [TC: Hi Jens. Your dissent is noted. The only way I’m at liberty to respond right now is as follows:

    InDesign docs put a bigger load on NavSvcs because of the way they’re constructed, but the dialogs work essentially the same way as the other Adobe apps. These crashes are reproducible in both Apple and Adobe versions of our dialogs. As far as we know, all of our dialog box mojo conforms to Apple’s guidelines, and Apple (whose developers who are the ones who have to tools to isolate these problems) have not told us otherwise. In fact, Apple sees this as a fix that they need to deliver via an update to Leopard. We have been, and continue to be, working as closely as possible on these issues in order to facilitate the delivery of a complete fix as soon as possible.

    If this issue were caused by something that our apps were doing, I can assure you that we would have either delivered a fix for it by now, our would be rushing to get one out as soon as possible (and would tell you so)…because we think the current situation is unacceptable for our customers.]

  7. I have a third workaround for running InDesign CS3 in Leopard (10.5.2) on a G5.

    I’ve been running IdCS3 for about two months or so this way, and I think I found the workaround on an earlier topic relating to the NavServices here. When I do this workaround InDesign behaves perfectly, if I forget it will crash the second I try to save a file or import an image or text.

    I’ve also been told that I can create an Automator script that will “run” the workaround and then drop that script into the Dock as the InDesign icon. Haven’t tried it yet but if 10.5.3 doesn’t fix it I will explore that further.

    All my Intel Mac’s work fine without the following workaround.

    1. Open a new doc and Print.

    2. Open the print dialog box choose the “Printer…” button

    3. Then go under the “PDF” button to “Save as PDF” which will open a basic “save as” Finder window.

    4. From this window you can “Cancel” all the way back out of the Print dialog box, close the new doc. At this point you can open any other InDesign file and save/save as/export/import without issue.

    [TC: Heath, thanks for the information. Does this prevent crashing from all file system navigation dialogs…like re-linking, PDF export, etc?]

  8. Yes Tim, that’s correct. This workaround (and I wish I could give credit where credit is due) works for everything where Finder interaction happens – relinking, exporting, importing, save/save as, open.

    Not to say that there are not some other little glitchy things here and there with 10.5.2, but it saved me from having to revert back to 10.4.11 on my primary workstation (dual 2GH G5).

    Hope others find it helpful.

  9. Tim,

    thank you for your response – I’ll take that at face-value, even when I’m still not totally convinced. I also want to apologize for my somewhat bitter tone; I’ve had lots of issues with IDCS3 since upgrading to Leopard, and they’re not exclusively related to the NavSvcs-issue (for instance, my Tab-palette is gone. If I try to invoke it via shortcut or via the pulldown menue, the menuebar flashes but the window itself doesn’t appear. I’ve tried everything from resetting workspaces to switching resolutions to rearranging monitors … no dice) and my frustration level was at the threshold of considering Quark again. And that’s saying something in my case …

    Heath,

    thank you very much for your workaround, which has saved me two days of productivity. I can vouch that this totally works, even when I have no idea why. I guess that’S for Apple and Adobe to figure out …

    [TC: Jens, no worries about your tone. Your frustration is understandable. Regarding Apple, all I can tell you is that we have not received any feedback from them at all that indicates that they think any of the CS3 apps are doing anything wrong. Given the amount of pressure we’re exerting to get fixes delivered, if InDesign were violating any protocols, we’d have heard about it by now. We’ve identified 3 different NavSvcs issues, and it’s likely that not all of the issues will be fixed in one release. We’ll probably get one repaired in one update, and the two other issues fixed in a subsequent release.]

  10. Scott Boucher says:

    Tim, why is it taking Apple so long to make the update? Seems that they would make this issue a top priority.

    [TC: Scott, I don’t know and I’m not in a position to speculate. I’ve been told that the fix is non-trivial, and Apple, like every other company, is always balancing competing priorities. For us getting this fix is a matter of utmost importance, and we’ve made that clear to Apple.]

  11. John says:

    I have two Macs in out office, both running InDesign all day everyday.
    One is a 24” that came with Leopard and the other a MacBook Pro that was upgraded from Tiger without a clean install. Both run without crashing all the time. Actually they both have two problems Command-H of course, and not coming back from the background when asked to. The only solution for this is a Force Quit (there is a ling thread about this on the Adobe Forum—also blamed on Apple.
    I also teach InDesign online to students from all over the world. Although they are not all on Macs, Leopard, or on CS3, I have only had two complain of crashing out of my dozens of students since Leopard was released.
    Guess we are lucky.
    John

  12. Timo Schulte says:

    Hello,
    my Workarround is to start InDesign, create a new doc, export it and that’s it. That’s what I need to do erverytime I open InDesign. But I leave it open the whole day.

    By the way I am angry, too. We spent a lot of money to get 10.5 and cs3. I hope for the next update that apple and adobe find a way to work better together.

    Timo

  13. David Broudy says:

    Hey Tim, LTNS.

    My issue with ID 5.0.2 on OS X 10.5.2 (Intel) is while on occasion I can’t hide it, on others I can, and sometimes once hidden it stays that way and I have to kill it. It also behaves badly with Spaces, so much that I had to turn Spaces off while I work on this project.

    This Mac had a clean install of Leopard, followed with Migration Assistant to bring over my stuff. I also did a full removal and reinstall of CS3 Design Premium last week.

    I’m not seeing crashes on place/open/save dialogs, though.

    [TC: Hi David, nice to hear from you. Your experience is not uncommon. I haven’t experienced the NavSvcs crashes either, but have experienced the Hide problems.]

  14. Brian Speer says:

    I too suffer the slings and crashes of CS3 in Leopard when using place/save/open.

    To add to the work arounds suggested, use Bridge to open files and drag and drop any image/text files. Using the mouse to go under File>Save usually works without problems.

    Perhaps one day, the world will be right again.

    [TC: Thanks for the workaround, Brian. The issue has bubbled up to the highest levels within Adobe and Apple, and things are moving along…at Apple’s pace…]

  15. David Broudy says:

    deleting the adobe caches and IDCS3 prefs seems to have fixed the problem, though I haven’t tried it with Spaces again yet.

  16. Matt Callis says:

    Hey Tim,

    How has your experience been with Leopard, so far? Are you experiencing similar issues to those described within the comments?

    [TC: I’ve experienced the minor annoyances of Hide problems, and also losing InDesign when trying to open an aliased file from Bridge–InDesign disappears…it’s still running, but it won’t display, forcing me to force-quit and re-launch. I have not experienced the NavSvcs issues. ]

  17. ben Frey says:

    I’m running a first-gen Intel Mac Pro quad-core and a clean install of Leopard.

    I get very infrequent crashes of InDesign CS3, and more often than that Acrobat 8 Pro lock-ups that sometimes require a reboot.

    My real issue, though, is a combination of two Spotlight issues that have completely killed my productivity. 1: InDesign’s save/place/open dialog boxes will crash any time I click on the Spotlight field in the dialog box. It just crashes outright. I used to be able to search for product IDs from the place dialog and it was fast and easy. Not anymore.

    2. Spotlight in Leopard is now “smarter” and ignores file names in search strings unless you type in the entire file name. If I have 10000 images in a master image folder, all named by UPC and most of them starting with the first 5 digits, in Tiger I could just type in the last 4 digits of the UPC I wanted and spotlight would return it instantly. Now I have to type in the entire UPC to “search” for it.

    Everyone with Leopard try this: create a folder on your desktop called 123456789 and then do a search for 23456789. Your folder won’t show up in the search results. In Tiger, it would. In Windows 98, after a 5 minute scouring of your hard drive, it would. In Leopard, it will not. You have to click the plus sign, add a custom search parameter (file name) and change it from “starts with” to “contains” and then type in your search string again, and then delete the primary search string (because the new string is a subset of that one, which is returning zero results), and then your folder will show up. Now when you close this window, you custom search goes away and cannot actually be saved (unless you are always doing the exact same search, every time). Alternatively, you can type in 12345 and it will magically appear. This is the kind of “smart” than makes me want to play Grand Theft Auto.

    This turns a 2 minute process (importing a couple dozen random UPC-named images for a promotional sheet) into a 15 minute search process. And since I can’t use the Place dialog in indesign anymore, I have to drag/drop my search results from a finder window into the document. When I forget that I’m doing a work-around, and accidentally hit CMD-D, InDesign crashes and I send a hateful message to whoever gets those crash reports. This happens at least a couple times a day. I am not at liberty to downgrade my system to Tiger for corporate political reasons I’ll avoid getting into, but suffice it to say that going backwards with software versions is not allowed around here unless one of the IT guys is having a problem with their software. 10.5.3 seems to be taking forever. My biggest concern is that my issues won’t be addressed when it does come out.

    [TC: Ben, don’t like being the bearer of bad tidings, but I don’t think 10.5.3 is going to contain any of our fixes. From what I’m hearing, though, are likely start seeing fixes for the three NavSvcs issues in subsequent releases…i.e., in a 10.5.4 and beyond, depending on whether or not Apple can deliver all the necessary fixes on one release or not. We’ve been exerting pressure at the highest engineering levels to get Apple to commit to delivering these fixes as soon as it’s possible for them to do so, but Apple ultimately decides what’s delivered in each OS update.]

  18. ben Frey says:

    Bummer. Is there a cross-platform trade-in option for the Creative Suite from Adobe? Can I turn in my Mac CS3 package and get one for Vista to replace it? I can run Vista through Parallels with no issues at all. I can even *gasp* search for a partial file name and have it appear in the results. Pretty sad that I’m considering this step. Is CS3 for Windows basically the same workflow as the Mac version, or will I be driven slowly insane by the differences?

    [TC: Hi Ben, no, I don’t think there’s a platform switching, cross-grade deal…and it is very, very sad indeed that you’re in the position of considering such a thing. I suggest you make that known to Apple…without mentioning the Parallels part….The Windows apps work pretty much identically when you’re actually in the apps. The only thing that might drive you insane are the OS differences. I haven’t used Vista at all–I run XP using VMWare on my Leopard installation–so I couldn’t guess what, if any, level or torment that environment would inflict upon you. Apple IS working on this, but just at the pace that you or I would like. That said, they are starting to talk to us about specific releases and time frames, which is progress.]

  19. Tim’s comments from 5/20 don’t sound promising regarding the NavSvcs problems being fixed but 10.5.3 is out today, any brave souls with PPC’s taken the leap?

    I have a 12″ PowerBook at home that’s become my test bed for updates so I’ll give it a try on that little guy and let you know how things go.

    Not holding my breath though. . .

    [TC: 10.5.3 does not contain fixes for either the NavSvcs or the Hide problems, I’m afraid. Bummer. BUT, I think we now have some good reasons to expect that the next release will contain something for us. If and when I hear anything that I’m allowed to share publicly, I’ll let you know.]

  20. alan says:

    I don’t know what I can do at this point other than down grading people’s machines back to 10.4.11. I was holding my breath for 10.5.3, but I can’t wait another four months for 10.5.4. My co-workers will kill me.

    [TC: Alan, I just posted a new entry alerting users to the fact that 10.5.3 DOES in fact, contain a partial fix for the Nav Services problem. It fixes ONE of the possible scenarios that leads to the crash. It’s at least the first tangible progress, and it’s evidence that Apple is at work on doing what’s necessary to address all the scenarios.]

  21. alan says:

    Well, that’s good news, but the two users that updated from 10.5.2 –> 10.5.3 are still having crashing problems. Not out of the wood s yet.

    [TC: I’ll reiterate this again: 10.5.3 includes a PARTIAL fix for the Nav Services crashes. We’re guessing that it will address maybe 10% of the Nav Services crash incidents. Apple is working diligently on getting the other types of crashes fixed as well.]

  22. butcherBaker says:

    Thanks All for the information you’ve been putting out here. I might have gone insane without it. Somewhere, like the other guy above, I found the “Open/print/printer/pdf/save as pdf/cancel all the way back out” method makes me able to get my work done. I still have stupid crashes, and if I forget to do this, the NavSvcs problems happen, but when I do this routine, I can export pdfs and relink and update images without any unusual behavior. I try to do it each time I launch the program. It’s a hassle, but I’m not pulling my hair out anymore.

    Sometimes that first step takes a while before the Print dialog box opens.

    oh, I’m on a single processor G5 Powermac with 10.5.3 at home where I have the problems, I do NOT have the NavSvcs problems on my Quad Core Intel Powermac at work

  23. Ted Moon says:

    I have a Mac Intel based Pro (single processor) 2.8 Quad OSX version 10.5.2 that runs among other things InDesign CS3 and I can’t seem to place a Microsoft Word document into it without crashing ID. These Word docs come from a PC platform but we both use OpenType fonts (from Adobe, Folio 11). Reading people’s problems with OSX 10.5.2, I am asking for a update on my OS to 10.5.latest. I don’t know if this will solve ID from crashes (I also cannot get ID to hide or come back from hide, but I hardly use that feature rich bug so no biggie) Does anyone else have a cross-platform Word document almost pouring but always crashing incident like me and found a solution/workaround? I would be grateful for any help.

    Thank you,

    Ted

    [TC: Ted, I’d recommend you post your question on the Adobe User to User forums on the Adobe website.]