John Nack on Adobe

Love the new features in Illustrator, and I think this changes wont effect the market as much as most think.

Illustrator is the most used tool today (hurra!hurra!hurra! that someone took Quarks place) - Cheers!

No more freehand? Shocking! So all those forum posters speculating this was true were right (Adobe should have just said so months ago).
Now perhaps someone can say why Adobe makes GoLive and Dreamweaver...

A bad day for all Freehand Users.
A bad day for DTP.
Welcome to the Adobe Monopoly

[Well, you can blame Adobe, but not in the way you think: FH steadily lost market share to Illustrator, and Macromedia realized that rather than fight that uphill battle, they'd be better off funding other efforts. As far as I can tell, the FH codebase had been essentially dormant for 2.5 years before Adobe took ownership. So, blame Illustrator for surpassing FH in the market, leading to the current situation, but don't blame Adobe for not reviving a dormant app. --J.]

I'm glad and happy that my dreams come true:
1) AI finally works with Freehand files
2) There will be less Freehand users in the World

Why i'm writing that? Just because of those users of Freehand, who put a comments on this post before me - it was typical situation for me for at least 10 years: someone send me Freehand file and I need to search someone else who can convert this file for me in eps or pdf.
Thanks God Corel Draw users (most of them I have from Russia) are more accurate and using at least eps files rather than sending and sharing graphics in native formats.

On other side - since the beginning AI was using as native format, that was a standart for print production so it was easy later to use it in Quark, PageMaker, InDesign or even in Freehand, Corel Draw, etc.

And it is only the most important thing I could tell now, but there are at least 100 more, why Illustrator was much much better to use if you want CORRECT and ACCURATE work done.

This is catastrophic!
It is very foolish decision from Adobe. Illustrator is great application but it cannot offer so many features that FH users need. AI CS3 took almost nothing worthy from Freehand. Even Xara Xtreme is way similar to Freehand.
Very bad, very bad Adobe.

Everyone I know involved in graphics use freehand instead of illustrator, so does much of the printing industry. This move will no doubt anger a lot of users and create more bad press and anger towards Adobe, already being criticised for the overly high pricing and the confusing suites of CS3.

Well now I know my productivity will lose efficiency, thanks to Adobe.
Drawing in Illustrators > import in Indesign because of the multipage : what a waste of time !!!!! It is a crazy situation!!!!

Why not selling FreeHand to a third company??? Are you scared????

As long FreeHand is working on OSX, I go on with it !!!!

[That's fine. That's why Adobe is continuing to sell FreeHand. And hopefully you'll give the Illustrator team a chance to convince you--maybe not now, but down the road as they incorporate more of what you like from FH. --J.]

Very bad, very bad Adobe.

it's time for the design community to go open source and make their production tools free software. adobe forcing users to switch to inferior tools is not the way. it'll be definitly less effort to develop a new software than working the next 20 years in illustrator...

(i'm a fh user since 1990)

It's a pity.
A lots of features in FreeHand are not in Illustrator.

[The most helpful thing would be to know what, in particular, you value and use in FH that's not present in AI. That way the team can prioritize the work in order to create a tool in which you feel comfortable. --J.]

not only Freehand discontinue, neither the upgreade path (nor courtesy coupon) to Illustrator, from which Freehand bundled with Studio MX is not available in Japan. at Japan, only way to get Illustrator, you have to pay $1000 to upgrade the CS3 Web-Premium in spite of $499 in US. this was disappointment for me, creators and developers in japan.

[I've confirmed with the Illustrator team that customers in Japan can upgrade FH to AI CS3 for ¥24,762 (~ $200 USD). --J.]

Given that the Freehand to Illustrator migration guide leaves out a _lot_ of features, and gives poor advice for others (why no mention of control-clicking on rulers to get a menu to change units), one has to wonder exactly how much time people really spend using / learning Illustrator --- then I think of the poorly aligned, unprintable garbage which I get as Adobe Illustrator .eps files at work and the answer is clear.

Well, someone needs to make a tool suitable for pre-press processing vector graphics quickly and efficiently --- obviously that won't be Adobe.

At the very least, Adobe should open up documentation of the FreeHand file format so that people will have a hope of getting their files into some other tool w/o having to resort to exporting to .pdf or .ai.

William

Most designers I know are very unhappy with this, and we are likely to switch to InDesign. Several have been trialing InDesign for some time in preparation for such an announcement.

I have been using Freehand for about 15 years, and have tried Illustrator several times, but I never felt comfortable with it. Freehand is a great product.

Add the feature of being able to set the halftones in a design right on the work page. Don't hide it and make it only available until the print page set up. Freehand has this feature available as a panel right in the working tools. This would make Illustrator a little more user friendly especially if you want to set different halftones in different parts if a design.

It was coming... but am disappointed to say the least.

Freehand 8/9 was some of the best software I have ever used. (Version 3.1 was good also. Version 4 and the MX series, not so much.)

I also used Illustrator during the same time period. Both products have their strengths.

As a consumer, instead of killing it, I wish that Adobe would of sold Freehand to another company that might of breathed some life back into it.

Freehand will be sadly missed
Worked with both appz in an ad agency for 5 years. IMHO, Illustrator is by far inferior and counter-intuitive, as are so many of the Adobe programs.
Should they bring up Illustrator to the level of Freehand 3.1 eventually, i might consider buying Illustrator.

Illustration and Graphic Design Pros use FreeHand, Illustrator is for the wannabe's. Nevertheless that FreeHand was treatened badly since Macromedia, it is still superior to Illustrator. Letting FreeHand die was clearly a managers decision, people who have no idea about working with vector graphics. Read http://www.ecliptic.ch/Thu/Blog.html

I hope you will pass along one more extremely useful Feehand feature that is sorely missing but needed in Illustrator.

Multiple pages. (Preferably handled the way Freehand handles them.)

I am mourning the loss of Freehand, although I knew it was going to happen as soon as Adobe bought Macromedia.

[It happened a long time before that. --J.]

At least they are going to hang on to Fireworks - a wonderful program for web graphics, no matter what the Photoshop bullies say. The analogy I make between Freehand and Illustrator is that Illustrator is like a high-maintenance woman you are trying to woo. You have to treat her just so, or the date will be a disaster. Can we do this? "No!" Well, how about - "I don't think so, mister". Freehand is a very low-maintenance date. You can just be yourself, take her out for a burger, and have a wonderful time.

[Heh. There are certainly bits of fussiness in Illustrator that I'd like to iron out. It would be great to know the specifics of what bothers you about AI so that we can tackle those things. --J.]

Everyone - take a deeeep breathe. It was pretty obvious that Freehand was on its way out, years ago. Long before Adobe had any say on the issue.

@ Jim: "mediocre software"? based on what comparison? Lets talk about getting your work done, getting it printed, keeping it flexible, crossing media - no one even comes close to Adobe.

@Chris: "most designers"? In the last 10 years I have met one designer who uses FH. I admit that FH had some features that were really nice. But way better that Illustrator. I think not.

@Thomas: "Illustration and Graphic Design Pros use FreeHand, Illustrator is for the wannabe's."

Please. Don't be such an ass. I really do not think it is the tool that defines one's position in the industry. I am a rabid Mac user, for instance, but I am not going to even touch the idea that someone using Windows and Illustrator (or PS, ID, DW, FL etc) can't kick my ass creatively. Its about the mind, soul and imagination. Hell, I know people who can embarass me with a stick in the dirt. What do I do - tell them that because they use a stick and not pencil and paper, they don't have talent?

[Tools are just tools, true. I just watched a video of a guy drawing the Mona Lisa in MS Paint! --J.]

John, you guys make some awesome stuff (not perfect) and you have collectively hit it out of the park with CS3.

[Thanks, Greg. --J.]

llustrator cs3 is ok. i work on both programs (illu and fh). the multipage funktion on FH ist really good, but why does nobody consider, that bezier curves work on freehand is 2 times faster and better done?

on illustrator you need to change the the tool for working on bezier curves, and if you have changed, you need to click outside of your objekt, and then trying to find the bezierpoint you wish.

adobe - illustrator developing crew, please make this work like in FH. thats my only big reason to work with FH (multiple pages, mask, and edge manipulation also). i don't care which name my vector program has or from which company it comes, i only don't wont to make 200'000 more clicks, cause of not logical illustrator bezier tool.

i work on really large illustrations, with hundreds of layers, hundreds of objekts, masks and so one, and if i have every time to click outside of a objekt (only to be able to chose a point), i'll spend 2 hours only on clicking.

thanks and regards
kux from switzerland

..if you're going to make statements like this, I'd appreciate your citing some sources. --J.

Sure, John, here you go:

Regarding Illustrator CS3 on the Mac platform

From
"In addition, no matter what kind of Mac you’re using, you will notice some performance improvements when you’re scrolling and zooming, and you’ll see faster screen redraws when you’re working with very complex documents. But there’s still a little room for improvement, especially in the program’s basic color-picking facility."

From the Adobe's Creative Suite Forum See messages #19, #20 and #21 - not very awe inspiring

From the Adobe's Illustrator (Macintosh) Forum See the first message about opening and saving AI CS3 files.

From the Adobe's Illustrator (Macintosh) Forum See message #11 about how Freehand is faster to work with than Ilustrator CS3, even when building core shapes.

Regarding Photoshop CS3 on the Mac platform
From CreativePro's review of Photoshop
"For Mac users, one of the most significant changes in CS3 will be the Intel-native code, which lets Intel Macs finally run Photoshop at full speed. The speed differences are not overwhelming, but they are noticeable. Even more important than speed is stability. Photoshop CS3 is less crash-prone on Intel Macs."

You said:
Photoshop CS3 is twice as fast on Intel-based Macs as CS2 was...". This is like comparing a broken horse-driven cart to a Ferrari; For the past two years, pro designers - on your own Adobe forums and elsewhere on the web - have consistently debunked and thumbed-down the CS2 suite as a waste of time, system resources, money and effort, as well as a missed opportunity to really hit home with the desired goodies. CS2 really pissed folks off by installing all kinds of crap all over the hard drive that remains difficult to remove. No, Sir, I'm not impressed with either Illustrator or Photoshop CS3.

Fireworks remains the most interesting of the suite. I look forward to using it.

Is there a possibility that Adobe could release the FH source code as a potential open source project? Surely with a code base that is at least 4 years out of date, there isn't much of a threat to AI CS3.

Sad, but inevitable. FH was a marvelous piece of software, from a UI and productivity point of view. In an effort to contribute productively, here's my list of issues with transitioning to Illustrator.

[Cool, thanks. --J.]

- FH's multiple pages. Not just the multiple pages, but having multiple master pages that can be assigned to one or more pages in a doc. Brilliant. This feature alone saves me days worth of work.
- As many have pointed out, FH's bezier editing is far easier. Fussing with editing points is the single biggest reason I refuse to use Illustrator. Drives me insane.
- FH's model for groups and layers are much easier to use than Illustrator's. It's so easy to move something from one layer to another. Don't you have to cut and paste in Illustrator? Silly, and unproductive.

[You can just drag and drop (or Opt/Alt-drag to duplicate). CS3 makes it easier to see the color associated with each layer. --J.]

- Most things in FH are very explicit -- you select something and you can immediately see and edit its properties. So many things in Illustrator seem much more hidden or implicit.
- Subselecting and editing grouped items works great in FH, using either the subselect tool or keyboard modifiers -- I've seen people struggle with this in Ill.

[I know the AI team has made improvements to group-handling in CS3; it would be interesting to get FH users' feedback. --J.]

Perhaps a future version of Illustrator could offer a "FH Compatibility Mode," where some of the tools (selection tool, please!) act like they did in FH. Didn't MM do something similar to make Photoshop users feel more at home in Fireworks? This might satisfy FH users, keep them productive, but not force longtime Ill users to learn new ways of working.

In the meantime, I'll probably switch to something else, maybe a combination of tools (Lineform and OmniGraffle, perhaps?) while I wait to see if Illustrator adopts the features and conceptual model I need. Fireworks CS3 feels surprisingly like Freehand in many ways -- if you only care about ppi and not dpi, it might suffice.

I've been an Illustrator user for a decade or so, also I had to learn how to use Freehand 5 years ago because of my work. I wasn't a pain. But neither it was using Illustrator.

They're both good soft, and although I think Freehand excelled in certain technical areas, Illustrator was much more for the creative people. Since version 9 of both applications I've seen Illustrator really be ahead, mainly because of its Photoshop-related features.

The only time when I miss really multipage layouts is when editing PDFs; Illustrator reaaally is very good at editing them at a detailed level, but it's not possible without a plugin (check this one from Hotdoor http://www.hotdoor.com/) to edit and save it back in multipage format.

Quark did never have a different sized multipage approach and people never missed it!!!

I think people overreact. I gave Freehand a chance and enjoyed it in spite that I was happy with Illustrator. If you know how, you can avoid most of the problems you seem to have with Illustrator. But do not expect Illustrator to became a Freehand clone. It's just not going to happen.

InDesign is not a clone of Quark and has made some really huge advancements I never saw in DTP with neither Quark or Pagemaker.

But please, Adobe do pay more attention to Illustrator, it has not evolved at the same rate as Photoshop or InDesign have, and loyal users need more reasons to convince people that is a right choice...

Over a decade ago I was Altsys lead tester for FH 3/3.1, so I have a unique history with a beloved tool. I gave nearly 2.5 yrs of my waking life to it.
When FH3 shipped I wrote a poem emailed to the team:
Humana Faben:
To make tools for humanity;
to make human the tools one needs.
To free the hand of the toolmaker;
to make tools for ones own freedom.

The creative freedom tools can bring;
the freedom to create must come together:
Freehand 3.0., another tool cycle continues...

I cherish the many kudos over 3/3.1 so many gave that version over so many years, thank you all. :-) Its the only reward I will ever get for my hard work.
Yes, I have moved on and am embracing Illy for it is cool, useful and has room for improvement (looking forward to CS3). John, I am a much wiser, older and slower man now, but perhaps Adobe might allow me to, somehow down the way, be a part of illy CS4. ;-)

[Thanks for the perspective, Andrew. I'll pass your note along to the team. --J.]

I've never used FH, but came to AI via Xara, CorelXara, and CorelDraw. I can't comment on multipage, since none of those apps ever had it, and I rely on ID for that now.

But I agree with others that AI's bezier handling is very poor in relation to other apps. Not only the teenytiny handles, but the hoops that you have to jump through to get things done.

And gradients and blends are not nearlt as intuitive as CorelDraw, for example. I should give more details I guess, but its late, I've just finished a mammoth coding job, and my brain's having a quiet snooze on the desk next to me.

But I rather like AI. It's not perfect. It has usability issues. But it fits well with the other Adobe apps, and that for me counts for a lot.

As the founder of Altsys, and one of the 4 original programmers who developed FreeHand 1.0, I am deeply moved by such fervent support. Thank you for your exceptional dedication over the years - I wish I could shake everyone's hand and look into your eyes, and tell you personally how much it means to me. I, too, am disappointed, but not at all surprised by Adobe's decision to kill FreeHand.

I'm out of the software industry these days, except as a user, and went on to start Zyvex, the first nanotechnology company. We hope to revolutionize a lot of things, and make the world a fantastic place by doing Atomically Precise Manufacturing. If we succeed, it will be due to those of you who bought FreeHand, and made it a success, which led to my financial ability to self-fund a nanotechnology company long before nano became cool.

I'm sorry to see FreeHand fade away, but will always be happy that we made a product that was so beloved. Thank you for your support...

[Thanks for checking in, Jim, and for all your contributions to making so many things possible in vector graphics. Good luck with your nano endeavors; just don't build some military-grade assassin-dust that kills us all! (or whatever Michael Crichton is tut-tutting about these days). ;-) --J.]

I'm quite saddened by this. I guess I knew there wasn't much hope for it after the Adobe merger and the extended period of no updates.

I've been using Freehand since version 3, and I've found it a natural and easy to use program. I've tried to get familiar with Illustrator on a few occasions, and every time it's just ended in frustration. Even simple things like selecting and moving objects, or setting guides precisely where I want them - become massive sources of pain in Illustrator.

[I've heard this enough from FH users in this thread that I've beem motivated to download and install FH--something I haven't done in quite a while. I'm also asking the AI team for a detailed overview of the differences between the apps when it comes to selecting objects, points, etc. I can't believe that if the FH way were so inarguably superior that Illustrator would simply never get things straight in 20 years of development. Therefore I have to think that there are pros and cons to each approach. We owe it to users to figure out ways to bring the best aspects together (maybe using preferences as needed), and to explain why things are as they are. --J.]

It's a shame too - because FH was ALMOST perfect. If only better opentype support (with opentype features, and embedding opentype fonts in a pdf) and perhaps some more blend options for imported images were added - I'd could handle the programs death and continue using it in my own little bubble on and on.

John, is there no chance of Adobe selling off Freehand like the last time it was acquired?

[I haven't heard of anything like that. --J.]

Hi people, I agree with the disappointments others have with the sad demise of FreeHand - even though blind Freddy could see the writing on the wall - it's rare that a piece of software generates such genuine emotion and 'heat' - this is surely due to the 'love' and genuine commitment to usability the original developers incorporated in the design of the app - and those of us who use both apps - can appreciate the ease of use and much more productive workflow - and sheer joy of using an app which works logically and in harmony with the creative process the way FreeHand does...
Isn't this much like the argument we have with Windows versus Mac - it's the 'human' element that Illustrator lacks - the UI and workflow just isn't 'there' the way it is in FreeHand - right? Quite apart from the multi-page and other features missing from Illustrator.
I know for a fact that many top art directors and designers working in Europe ONLY use FreeHand - and like myself, are grudgingly using Illustrator on a 'have-to' basis - it also appears that those who have only ever used Illustrator have no real basis for comparison...
We all know the power of marketing and financial muscle wins over genuinely good, usable technology on a regular basis - who in fact did kill the electric car?
I believe this is an opportune time for Fireworks to pick up the ball and run with it - not just as a Photoshop alternative/substitute, but as a worthy successor to FreeHand - surely the nice things we loved in FreeHand could be incorporated into Fireworks? I personally yearn for a tool that would allow me to prototype Flash projects more precisely without having to become an Actionscript guru - I mean how many hours are there in a day? If not Adobe & Fireworks, maybe Xara could do some listening - bring out an app that included all the beautiful workflow/features of FreeHand and expanded on it - AND port it to Mac - now wouldn't that make sense? Instant market for that IMHO...
I just don't think Illustrator will EVER be as nice to use as FreeHand - it's already too bloated and 'technically' challenging - it IS more precise - but that's about the only thing I like about it... apart from the Dimensions features - sadly this is where FreeHand started to lose ground through lack of further development - 3D & Transparency ARE better in Ill - but that's about the only temptation I have to use Ill... even now. I always turn to FreeHand first to develop ideas quickly and efficiently... and surely that is the ultimate test - like a good friend you get on easily with... and are in grief to lose... RIP Freehand...
Rohan
Sydney, OZtralia

I was an Adobe fanatic and evangelist, 1st Postscript programmer in France, a long time ago

Once again I very disappointed with Adobe.
I was an Adobe Premier user on Mac, Adobe did drop it

[It's back. --J.]

Now it's the time for Freehand :(

I do agree with what said Rainer "If you *really* decide to drop FreeHand, you still could sell it to another company or release it open source. "

Wow, up until now Adobe has assured us that Freehand will live on.

[Well, FreeHand does "live on," just as it's been doing for the last four years. The statement last year was badly written. It didn't say that there would be a new version of FH, and it didn't say there wouldn't. I believe it was written with the best info available at that time (as the whole Adobe-MM lineup was still settling into place), but all things considered it wasn't helpful. --J.]

One almost the day CS3 released there is complete reversal. I feel cheated, the timing just seems too perfect.

what makes the difference for me is that in freehand i can easily produce a complex artwork (for example a cd packaging incl cd labels and all) with vectorgraphics, easy typesetting over muliple pages with custom sizes without having to bother about a rgb/cmyk setup etc, or also interactive pdf presentations all in one app while illustrator in my eyes is still more a tool to edit vectorgraphics only - and in a very time-consuming way with thousands of useless and pointless effects i'd never even want to know about.

i don't know where to start with listing fh's advantages, it's probably the overall workflow and that supposedly wouldn't fit at all in adobe's approach of the ps/id/ai trinity - so i have no hope that tuning illustrator would lead to where freehand is already.

This sucks!
I worked with Freehand since 3.1 version, so there are tons of old data in freehand format that i will need to work with in future. I always hoped adobe will give Freehand a bug fix update and make it work properly on macosx (long file names...)
BUT NOW NOTHING!
And no abilitity to convert old freehand data to Indesign/Illustrator!

[As I've mentioned several times, Illustrator now includes native FH file import. --J.]

This is realy unfair Adobe! This really sucks!

i won't start about the multipage thing - it’s mentioned often enough and really, it's not even nearly the most important advantage of freehand over illustrator, altough it is GOOD. here's my list of top other reasons to still prefer freehand (unloved and aged as it may be) and not wanting to 'upgrade' to illustrator. and mind you, most of the reasons are really not that exotic, they are simply the result of the fact that the people working on illustrator just can't seem to get some of the fundamental basics of working with vector graphics right, even after 13 'upgrades'.

basically three things: simplicity, functionality and intuition. even the simplest of things are (still) hard to understand and difficult to manage in illustrator, whereas freehand has always made very complex and difficult things very easy to understand and manage...

1. the fine art of selecting objects... (it's the number one thing because it's what you do most with either program)
1a. in freehand you can do twice as much with one selection tool as you can in illustrator with THREE selection tools; IN HALF THE TIME. adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.
1b. probably the most annoying and bewildering illustrator 'feature' since version '88 is 'contact sensitive' selection. it means that ANYTHING you touch while dragging the selection tool is selected (even an invisible masked graphic that you didn't even know was there), which in turn means that it is practically impossible to select only the objects you want. freehand has the same 'feature' since version 10, but luckily it gives you the possibility to choose and the default mode is still that only objects that fall entirely within the selection area are selected. this makes much more sense and in practice it's a lot more workable and FASTER. adobe, please explain to us why we should consider to upgrade.
1c. freehand has always had an incredibly easy and powerful way of subselecting parts of a group or superselecting the group that an object belongs to (with modifier keys), even if that group is within another group within another group etc. illustrator anyone? adobe, please explain to us why we should consider to upgrade.
1d. deselecting points on a path, or deselecting anything for that matter, has always been simple and straightforward in freehand. in illustrator i've finally stopped trying to deselect anything because it is simply too frustrating... adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.

2. the fine art of drawing in postscript... (for crying out loud adobe, YOU invented it, now look what you've done with it)
2a. in freehand you can do twice as much with one path tool (by using the command, alt and shift keys) as you can in illustrator with four (4!) path tools; IN A QUARTER OF THE TIME. adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.
2b. freehand has known the concept of cornerpoints, curvepoints and tangentpoints since version 1, and drawing and editing paths has always been a breeze. illustrator version 13 is still completely and utterly ignorant in this respect and it's still a pain to draw even the simplest of shapes... adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.
2c. in freehand only a closed path can have a fill which makes perfect sense, but in illustrator an open path can also have a fill, which is prehistoric, annoying, totally useless and prone to problems. adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.

3. the fine art of displaying objects
3a. in freehand there is a clear difference (visible and functional) between a grouped path and a non-grouped path or between grouped objects and non-grouped objects. grouping is meant to make working with complex graphics and layouts easier, but that entire concept still seems wasted on the developers of illustrator. illustrator insists that a complex graphic or a complex layout IS complex and that it should be presented to you likewise at all times and that as a result it should also be very difficult to work with. freehand has always done a fantastic job at making complex things easy. so, adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.
3b. illustrator insists on showing things in keyline mode that should be hidden altogether, like entire masked graphics, or all the 200 steps of a gradient...

4. freehand needs less than half the amount of palettes as illustrator to get to the same basic relevant information. can someone explain to me why illustrator needs some 30 palettes for it's core functionality (and add another 60 (!) or so for random other unneeded nonsense). i spend half my time, trying to find the right palette. bottomline: in illustrator i will be working late still trying to find that palette, in freehand i will be lying on the beach because the job is done... adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.

5. illustrator has an incredible amount of unnessessary tools, apart from the ones mentioned earlier: a scissors tool, a blend tool, NINE graph tools, an eyedropper tool, EIGHT symbol tools, three pencil tools, SIX text tools... mind you, all the things you can do with these tools, can be done in freehand equally good or better without a tool. it's a lot cleaner and less confusing, a lot easier and more precise. adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.

6. typographic control in illustrator 13 is still inferior to that of freehand 5.5 (15 years ago...). adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.

some random madness in illustrator:

6. freehand has always had the simple but beautiful 'clone' command, whereas illustrator still wants us to copy and 'paste in front'. plain stupid.

7. a filter menu AND an effect menu? come on, really?

8. define a fontstyle in paragraph styles when you already have characterstyles? think again. hard...

9. pffff, etc.

all in all, illustrator has since it's beginning made the impression of a program that was not very well thought through at all. merely a random bunch of features carelessly thrown together and sold as a drawing program who's main purpose seemed to be to frustrate it's users. and it seems to me that it still is. freehand on the other hand has always struck me as a clever, well thought out program. sadly it didn't fit in macromedia's strategy so it was neglected from version 5.5 on up. upgrades were sloppy and macromedia slowly and painfully killed one of the best graphics apps ever made. the only real advantages of illustrator over freehand that i can think of right now are smoother screen display, a better 'expand stroke' function and transparency. it seems to me that it would have been a lot easier for adobe to add those few things to freehand and ditch illustrator, than what adobe in its infinite wisdom is doing now... it is sad that the best of the two packages is killed in favour of it's half wit counterpart and it suggests that product quality is not among adobe's current focusses. and since i'm not at all confident that adobe will listen to comments like these, let alone make illustrator better, indeed, i'd say it's high time someone sat down and wrote us a new shiny graphics program, just like our deceased friend.

You simply don't know what you do to the freehand users with thousands of files......

[This is why Illustrator CS3 features native import of FreeHand files. --J.]

Especially here in Germany FH is the more popular app.....

As a guy who learned FH many years ago, I feel your pain friends, but anyone who's been paying attention to the market knows that FH was dying.

In an effort to be constructive with my criticisms, I created a series of blog articles on the topic, the first of which is here. John and Phil (PMs for PS and AI respectively) have been very responsive to my feedback, so I recommend keeping in touch with them.

When I heard that Macromedia was being acquired, I was hopeful that AI would finally be able to incorporate many of the no-doubt patented features that make FH great, while retaining the many reasons why I switched to AI for my own work as a product designer. FH will be like the Commodore 64: it was great... at the time. Get over it.

For those who think FH should be open-source, get real. If you think open-source is so great, go spend your valuable time and energy writing it from scratch. But I hope you don't mind if the rest of us keep getting paid for our work.

A bunch of you will no doubt switch to other platforms in protest. "Oh, I think I'll faint, it distresses me so!" Oh, get back to work. AI will get better if you spend your energy providing productive feedback instead of balling your eyes out.

GIVE THE SOURCE CODE OF FREEHAND TO THE OPEN SOURCE COMUNITY!

MAKE IT OPENSOURCE !!!!!!!!!

All of us loyal FreeHand users have been terrified that this day would come. Even though the writing has been on the wall for a long time now, I’m still using FreeHand MX (even as I write).

By the way, I had to test Illustrator when our Altsys team was writing early documentation for FreeHand and Virtuoso. I’ll never forget Pete Mason telling me to try (just try) to draw a square in Illustrator. Impossible. Illustrator was painful to use then and it’s painful to use now. I will never use it, so I’ll definitely be looking for other design software when it no longer runs on my Mac.

I hope Adobe decides to go the way of Fontographer, and sells it to a company that will support and promote it in the manner it deserves, and give FreeHand designers the quality they’ve come to rely on.

J: By the way, don’t believe everything that Michael Crichton writes.

CORELDRAW is better than CS3
...an adobe beta tester...

[How so? --J.]

It's a sad day, but completely expected. The world cares less and less about the things that FreeHand does well, and Illustrator has done a great job of appealing to users for new purposes.

Illustrator has apparently become a fine tool for those who once would have used pencils, inks, and brushes. I never had any facility with those tools, and rarely actually needed or wanted to do that kind of work.

FreeHand, on the other hand, was always the absolute best tool for those jobs that we once used tapes, RubyLith, X-Acto knives, waxers, cold type, and acetate overlays for. I used to do artwork on a fantastically-expensive printed grid using prepunched pin-register polyester sheets. FreeHand was the only product that ever did that kind of work well. (Remember when Illustrator had no way to set numerical dimensions or positions on anything?)

I've been using FreeHand on both platforms since 2.01 on the Mac and 3.0 for Windows. I was a beta tester for at least four versions. I've honestly tried to use Illustrator dozens of times over the years, but the AI approach to selection, layers, and alignment has been so inferior that I've always ended up rebuilding AI files in FH to save time.

I'll admit that we're doing a bit of whining on the list today, but I'd like to welcome all FreeHand users to join the FreeHand list. I joined it when it was hosted by the University of Alaska many years ago, became the moderator when founder left, and have been hosting it since the university withdrew support for off-campus lists. It's not a huge group, but the members collectively know just about all the tricks:

http://www.domainvanhorn.com/mailman/listinfo/freehand

Van

"CORELDRAW is better than CS3
...an adobe beta tester..."

Please pass the crack pipe. You have GOT to be kidding. That's like comparing the handling of a tractor to a Ferrari. John, you are a brave man with some thick skin! I can't believe some of these comments!

That said, I have to make some positive comments about Illustrator. I've already utilized the AI to Flash conversion which was amazing. Converting layers, editable text, and even masked objects flawlessly has saved me hours of time already. And the new Eraser and Isolate mode are a dream come true. And I haven't even delved into the new color stuff. This is the best AI upgrade ever and I have been using it since AI88! Keep up the great work and your tolerance levels! ;^)

[Heh--thanks, Greg. I'm *really* passionate about software tools, so I totally get where FH fans are coming from. I respect the passion folks are displaying here. I'm simply trying to give an accurate picture of where things stand (and have stood over the past few years), and to articulate a pragmatic way forward. No single tool will ever make *everyone* happy, but I do believe that by focusing on one illustration app instead of splitting efforts between a couple of them, Adobe can make more customers happy over the long run. I don't expect everyone to believe that right now, but I do ask people to give Adobe a chance. Time will tell.

Oh, and glad to hear you're liking the Illustrator-Flash integration. Having spent many hours porting/re-creating artwork in the past, I couldn't be happier that it now Just Works. --J.]

So what happens if you open a multipage Freehand file into Illustrator CS3? Huh? Many people, my entire design firm, make frequent use of the multipage feature in Freehand, would love to know how Illustrator is going to cope with that. And to put it simply, Adobe has been a stubborn, stupid ass for not including this feature in Illustrator years ago, BECAUSE IT IS A MISSING FEATURE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SCREAMING ABOUT FOR THE LAST 6 VERSIONS!!!!!!! Why worry about InDesign? People who need to print 200 page books will use it, if you need an 8 page brochure, use Freehand....ahem....I mean Illustrator.

Remember the Movie Gladiator in which Maximus is stuck like a pig by the jealous, murderous, and inferior Commodus because he fears that he would lose his fight with him head-to-head in the arena? Well, Freehand is our Maximus. For years, Adobe has touted the "industry standard" moniker, refusing to acknowledge Freehand had it's own niche in the market. It didn't take a genius to figure out Adobe had it in for Freehand the day Macromedia was purchased. Like the many applications Adobe has gobbled up and left to die (Pagemaker, Framemaker) we are now getting to see Freehand rot on the shelves while the suits at Adobe line their pockets. Let's hope that, as in Gladiator, the Freehand followers will be strong enough to endure this test (even in Freehand's death) to open customers eyes to a better, more responsible way of doing business. As for me, I'm waiting for the next Illusrator killer (MS? Quark? Freeverse?) that listens to it's fan base and doesn't browbeat them into conforming to an unrealistic workflow. Sorry Adobe, you lost me. Hopefully other Freehand users will use this opportunity to explore the vector art landscape and find a company that truly cares about the customer and not just its bottom line. Illustrator isn't Freehand, and it never will be no matter how hard you push people. $200 "special upgrade" price? InDesign for multi-page? Gimme a break! Oh and BTW John, Freehand was always better at integrating with the Macromedia Flash & Fireworks apps, so just because CS3 does now, doesn't make it a worthwhile upgrade.

[Actually, the Flash integration never had anything to do with FreeHand vs. Illustrator, or Fireworks vs. Photoshop. It has had everything to do with Flash itself. We at Adobe did everything we could to integrate with Flash, but without the ability to write import plug-ins (as Flash provided for FH and FW PNG files) or to write FLA files (which we tried to do), there was limited room to maneuver. As it happens, even before the Adobe-Macromedia deal was announced, both we & the Flash team had been thinking that we had to work together better. So, we were all really psyched that we'd have a chance to share code and make things really smooth. --J.]

Shame on you and everyone at Adobe. The marketing spin has got to stop.

I really have to laugh at the huge amount of melodrama present in the comments on this post. "... been terrified this day would come." Give me a break. Freehand, just like Illustrator is a tool to get your job done. If DeWalt discontinues selling the sliding compound miter saw you're used to using, you use the one you own until it breaks, then learn to use the new one. It's no different here.

But somehow people grow attached to computers and software. They treat Freehand like some old friend that Adobe is taking out to the south pasture and burying under the rusted out '34 Chevy. When in actuality, they're just saying "hey, there won't be any new versions of Freehand, but continue to use the one you have for as long as you need and we'll even sell you more licenses if you need them. Oh, and if you want to snag a copy of our new hotness, Illustrator, we'll cut you a big break on the price." My God, string them up!

For those worried about your "years and years of Freehand files"... Freehand isn't going to stop working on January 1, 2008. Keep opening the darn things in Freehand and slowly transition to Illustrator or whatever other alternative you want to go with.

For those who suggest open sourcing Freehand, that's rubbish. It'd be great if Adobe did so, but they are under no obligation to and while Freehand is a rapidly depreciating asset, it is still an asset nonetheless and one that I'm not sure they'd want to just hand over to the free software movement to give them a head start on competing with them. Remember, Adobe isn't your friend, Adobe is a business that's in it to make money.

And really, development on Freehand ended years ago... blame Macromedia, not Adobe.

OK, I really appreciate the opportunity to voice opinions on this 'forum' - however, let's all try to be a little more rational? Pleez?
There are very good reasons why FreeHand can be seen by many loyal users to be a better, faster, more intuitive tool to get certain - in fact most - jobs done. Likewise I see that Illustrator - even with its many frustrations - is a better tool for precision work, 3D (via the Dimensions inclusion) - and certain other types of work... although for 99% of those things I would use Swift3D or Photoshop... admittedly...
However having said that, it is a mistake to believe that simply coz the majority of designers use a certain product that it is a better product (in general terms) - it all depends on what you're trying to achieve, right?
Will sanity prevail here? Fireworks is the logical 'heir' to Freehand - many of FreeHand's developers/supporters from MM now work (or so I've been lead to believe) on this product... but will they be permitted to incorporate the functionality, features and ease of use we all love FreeHand for in future versions of that product? I was actually told this was going to be the case - by an Adobe evangelist at a Sydney seminar about a year ago now...
What about developing FreeHand as a really nice, intuitive and slick Flash prototyping environment - along with the best (existing) design interface out there? Once again, not all of us want or aspire to be Actionscript gurus... I'd really appreciate comment/feedback on this aspect...
It really all comes down to whether Adobe is listening to valid concerns/frustrations about current products, or whether they take an arrogant 'we know better' position instead, right?
I use FreeHand, Indesign (an excellent program) & Photoshop, along with SiteGrinder (another excellent piece of software), Flash and Dreamweaver to get 99% of my work done - and I do enjoy using them all... there are DEFINITELY many reasons to prefer Freehand to Illustrator for the majority of design jobs - but yes, there is also a place for Illustrator... once again it all depends on what you're trying to achieve...
I mean no piece of software can be everything to every1. I used to love the Zaxwerks and and MetaCreations/Kai Krausse's 3D Vector plug-ins for FreeHand - (and wish they were still available for FHMX) - likewise if I want to enjoy multi-pages in Illustrator, I could learn to love Hotdoor's plug-ins... YES I KNOW Illustrator should have that as standard... but hey, this is not a perfect world, right?
John, I DO hope that you pass these valid criticisms of Illustrator on to the development team... none of us would 'hate' Illustrator so much if the usability issues weren't so glaring... we don't need all the bells and whistles if the basic functionality were similar to FreeHand's... in any case, is it possible to 'hate' software - or to be annoyed at the lack of response from a company that refuses to act or listen?
Sure Adobe is NOT our friend - they are in it to make money... but if a company refuses to listen - then the writing is on the wall for them too... regardless of how dominant they are presently...
Oh, just in case any1 is listening, in the interest of balance - I just wish that FreeHand had a way to stroke on the INSIDE of a path - many unanswered requests to MM when they were marketing it - is that in Illustrator yet? Never took the time to find out...
:P
Rohan
Sydney, Australia

Joer, ahora que acabo de aprender a usar el FH y lo retiran,... que mala suerte...

abrazos

I find all this makes me feel quite sad... as do the quippy clever answers you are giving from time to time John. You asked for, and have avoided commenting on what has been in places some really sound critique (for example alex — 01:37)all this makes me wonder what on earth Adobe is doing. Letting the news "slip" out here in your blog first and letting you carry the can on your own?? .. thats interesting marketing philosophy....

[Adobe has gotten to the size where simply updating a page on Adobe.com has gotten stupidly sclerotic & bureaucratic. Therefore it's often easier just to cut to the chase and post things here. --J.]

There is an obvious lack of understanding at Adobe about what Freehand is for its users...I quote your comment to Nathan Adams — 04:49:

".... I've beem motivated to download and install FH--something I haven't done in quite a while. I'm also asking the AI team for a detailed overview of the differences between the apps when it comes to selecting objects, points, etc."....

seriously..you havn't already done that?

[As always, I'm speaking for myself, personally. For all I know the Illustrator team has done all this many times over the years. But I'm not on the Illustrator team. --J.]

... that seems to point to a strategic logic that completely ignored how the program functions or its comparative merits with illustrator, in other words ... dropping Freehand is a top down decision, not one built on the merits of functions and user experience. As a designer, I am a believer in form following function, and freehand excels in that sense in certain areas...(all previously stated again and again here).

I have to agree with Andrew in his post that leaning on sales statistics really is not enough. sales may well have outrun Freehand since before 2000, but that in itself doesnt necessarily mean Illustrator is a better program...it might just be down to better marketing... the real benchmark here is the user experience, and everyone I have ever worked with here in Spain in the last 15 years in graphic design, layout, and pre-print has used Freehand, and has had difficulties with using Illustrator...for all the same reasons people have stated here over and over.... a pretty clear picture is emerging in this thread for Adobe if I may say so.
Lets hope that you all take note, and that CS4 amazes us!!