April 09, 2010

Adobe CTO comments on Flash & the App Store

Adobe Chief Technology Officer Kevin Lynch has touched briefly on some new features in CS5 (hope you can attend the launch on Monday) and provides a short response to yesterday’s news from Apple:

So, what’s all the fuss about the Apple proposed revised SDK license?

Yesterday Apple released some proposed changes to their SDK license restricting the technologies that developers can use, including Adobe software and others such as Unity and Titanium.

First of all, the ability to package an application for the iPhone or iPad is one feature in one product in Creative Suite. CS5 consists of 15 industry-leading applications, which contain hundreds of new capabilities and a ton of innovation. We intend to still deliver this capability in CS5 and it is up to Apple whether they choose to allow or disallow applications as their rules shift over time.

Secondly, multiscreen is growing beyond Apple’s devices. This year we will see a wide range of excellent smartphones, tablets, smartbooks, televisions and more coming to market and we are continuing to work with partners across this whole range to enable your content and applications to be viewed, interacted with and purchased.

Posted by John Nack at 4:22 PM on April 09, 2010

Comments

  • ChrissyOne — 5:01 PM on April 09, 2010

    “This year we will see a wide range of excellent smartphones, tablets, smartbooks, televisions and more coming to market…”
    Just like all those Plays For Sure music players..?

  • Wilhelm Reuch — 5:32 PM on April 09, 2010

    So Adobe is asking for a lawsuit from its customers? By shipping a product while fully knowing that when their customers try to ship product based on it – they will be rejected?
    This would be a much nicer situation if Adobe werent so arrogant (I just read Lee Brimelows blog) and sees its customers as a ‘mob of angry villagers’ (this blog last year).
    Why not learn from Apple? Shut up, be creative, work hard and invent new great products? Adobe seems so desperate holding on to their ageing products.

  • Eric Jones — 5:38 PM on April 09, 2010

    Are you high? You have a two barrel shot gun at point blank range pointed at your head. One slug from Apple and the other slug from Silverlight they have a combined market cap of over $400 billion dollars of power behind them and all you can do is say all is well. Like I mentioned to John Dowdell (Adobe Blogger), you guys are like a frog in water and you don’t sense the heat is getting turned up on you. Look at Real Media look at Netscape do you understand your reality? True your death will be slow but you are starting to die. What do you plan to do to stay alive? No really what is your plan?

  • Angel Lamuno — 5:42 PM on April 09, 2010

    If Adobe thinks that Apple’s mobile platform is going to be a winner it should forget about flash on that platform and develop the products it takes to make itself a leader on that platform just as it is a leader on the Mac.
    I will not get flash on my iPad and I don’t care. I would really love to have the likes of LR, I, and PS on it.
    [You may be heartened to see that Adobe released a new drawing app for iPad on the first day of that product’s availability, and that we’ve been soliciting input on other tablet apps you’d like to see. –J.]
    Yours truly,

  • Classy — 5:53 PM on April 09, 2010

    With “classy” comments from some Adobe employees like “What is clear is that Apple has timed this purposely to hurt sales of CS5.” and “Go screw yourself Apple”, it’s no wonder Adobe is on a death spiral created by themselves.
    Adobe is so intent on defending a much hated, dying, CPU hogging, unstable platform that they would even sabotage HTML5 Canvas through W3C politics.

  • Eric Jones — 5:54 PM on April 09, 2010

    You have been drinking too much of the Steve Jobs kool aid. Spoken like a true fan boy or fan girl or whatever you are.

  • John Goodhew — 6:00 PM on April 09, 2010

    As a longtime Adobe and Apple user, I appreciate the measured response of Mr. Lynch. This is in stark contrast to the shrill tone adopted by Mr. Brimelow in his semi-official “The Flash Blog”.

  • Eric Jones — 6:05 PM on April 09, 2010

    How do you feel about what Apple has done ? If Adobe stops supporting Apple with their CS suite, will you continue to use Apple or would you follow Adobe over to Windows ?

  • Final Cut Pro — 6:14 PM on April 09, 2010

    Apple will just release a Photoshop killer. Final Cut Pro killed Premiere and is clearly a far superior product to Premiere.
    It would be nice to have a modern, legacy free 64bit Cocoa app built from the ground up to take advantage of multi-core CPUs and GPU power instead of the legacy codebase junk, product activation crap, horribly bad installer and legacy Carbon app that is Photoshop.
    Steve Jobs called it right, Adobe is LAZY.
    [Let’s see how things look on Monday, when Adobe announces 64-bit Cocoa versions of Photoshop, After Effects, and Premiere Pro–the latter of which will take amazing advantage of GPU hardware. Let’s see how 32-bit, Carbon-based FCP looks alongside that. (Oh, wait–you’ll just tell me that Carbon/Cocoa doesn’t really matter (which it doesn’t) and that 64-bit is a bunch of marketing hype.) –J.]

  • Mark Fuqua — 6:36 PM on April 09, 2010

    Wow…you Apple boys are kind of crazy.

  • Klaus Nordby — 6:58 PM on April 09, 2010

    It’s soooooo soothing for my nerves to be using Adobe’s mostly very excellent products on the Windows platform. No mindless fanboyism required, no Flash-bashing required.

  • Eric Jones — 7:11 PM on April 09, 2010

    I am not sure how much killing Apple can do to Adobe’s Desktop apps. According to netmarketshare.com, over 90% of the world uses Windows only 5% use Mac. If every Mac ran Final Cut it still couldn’t past usage of Adobe Premiere on the PC.
    [Well, in fairness you have to look at Mac market share among creative professionals (i.e. the folks who would buy FCP or Premiere Pro). That’s always been its bastion of strength, and Creative Suite sales are roughly 50/50 Mac/Win. –J.]

  • David — 7:27 PM on April 09, 2010

    “Why not learn form Apple?”
    Ah…so I should have to get approval from Adobe before i release a Photoshop plugin? Perhaps Adobe could set up an Extension store that all add-ons must be sold through. The only other way to get a plugin would be by running a pirated version of Photoshop. Also, all plugins must use Flash for all of their UI.
    If “Automated reshaping of human bodies” was made into a plugin, it could be rejected on the grounds that it would promote a negative body image.
    Adobe could include a CD check, so you have to have a CD in the drive every time you launch a CS5 product! (the iPad needs to sync to iTunes)

  • J-Man — 7:30 PM on April 09, 2010

    We do live in interesting times. I for one am super-stoked to hear about CS5 on Monday. The Photoshop stuff alone is amazing from the previews and there is some things about After Effects and Flash that I can’t wait to hear more about. Adobe’s tools are central to so much of what we see on the web every day, and honestly for me, Monday is like Christmas morning…
    So the whole Apple 3.1.1 section rewrite is malicious and nasty, but it is strategic and in my opinion, something they are being forced to do. I think there is a big chance that they are repeating the closed system control-freak strategy that let PCs roll over Macs two or three decades ago, but we’ll see. There are a lot of Flash “apps” out there on the interweb in .swf form that are ripe to be ported to a phone OS that is accepting and open. I can see Google’s Android inheriting all of them while Apple suffers from a developer brain drain over the next year or so. Apple looks to be in control now, but things change pretty quickly these days!

  • David — 7:34 PM on April 09, 2010

    This has nothing to do with Flash on the iPad/iPhone.
    Perhaps you are commenting on the wrong post?

  • steve mcdonald — 7:55 PM on April 09, 2010

    I can’t wait for CS5. I will invest. I love where the line is pointing with mobile in mind. Great job Adobe. All the right moves.
    As for Apple, I own a lot of Apple hardware. But I think they are playing the evil card here. And it isn’t directly about preferring XCode development tools. It is about disincentivizing developers by forcing them to build apps only for the Apple mobile platform. They are hoping that if they can force developers into learning objective-C then they will focus them on building apps only for apple products. Who really wants to write apps twice, right?
    This is what I say: Use AIR to write for Windows 7 + linux + OSX + Windows Phone 7 + Android + blackberry + Symbian OR focus on iPhone + iPad.

  • Santiago Gutierrez — 8:00 PM on April 09, 2010

    I just want to point out that you are ignoring the obvious. None of the Final Cut Studio apps are 64 bit or will be for the foreseeable future(in the next year).
    I think it’s a little hypocritical to be bashing Adobe over their “laziness” when Apple itself has not recoded it’s own professional applications to be 64 bit. I say this as a professional FCP user who also uses CS4 to make a living. Both are critical suites for professionals that together form a very strong package.
    And it will be very ironic that with CS5’s release, Adobe will be totally 64 bit in its pro apps and we’ll still be waiting for FCP.

  • GH — 8:30 PM on April 09, 2010

    I recently saw a NEXT computer for sale at Free Geek Thrift Shop in Portland OR. Originally they were asking like $12,000.00, but I think they changed its price to NFS. Seriously I hate to revert back to 1995 and try to set up a HP Kayak and MS Windows for Photoshop. The only valid thing that comes to mind is processing instruction and battery life claims. Important sure, but..hey I’m just not that geeky to know. It is a bit frustrating that Apple and Adobe, being the 2 most important companies in my life..well dang. Adobe has to cater to the PC world, and Apple , since the iPhone has become so-so-so, consumer orientated.Producing the best in that area in my opinion, but how about, what about the reverence for professional creative? What would the statue look like?

  • Ethan — 8:34 PM on April 09, 2010

    I use CS4/flash builder/catalyst on MBP. I won’t be bringing the iPhone or iPad into my home and told my bosses that they are a money sink for our products. They require a development house to go all in and hang your hat on only them. That just gets you vendor lockin. Not healthy for the bottom line. I’d rather develop for a wider variety of devices and have one code trunk. In the last 3 months apple has pushed me to actively push for avoiding developing for them. I didn’t like MS telling me what browser to use and I don’t like apple telling me what language to write in. That’s thinking different i guess.

  • Mark — 9:03 PM on April 09, 2010

    Ha, ha, ha! The ONLY business ecosystem that takes Apple seriously is the arts world and that’s the CS world. And, oh, I can run all that stuff on an HP workstation. Great move, Apple, piss off the ONLY software maker that gets your hardware any respect. Yeah, and Apple, fight with Google at the same time why don’t you…

  • Mark — 9:06 PM on April 09, 2010

    Ha, ha, ha! The ONLY business ecosystem that takes Apple seriously is the arts world and that’s the CS world. And, oh, I can run all that stuff on an HP workstation. Great move, Apple, piss off the ONLY software maker that gets your hardware any respect. Yeah, and Apple, fight with Google at the same time why don’t you…

  • Matt Gardner — 9:20 PM on April 09, 2010

    John, your ever-rational perspectives and coverage in face of the events that might have Adobe adjust its strategy are inspiring. Much as there may be a variety of reasons for strategic corporate shifts the spectrum of negative commentary is at worst a waste of energy and at best a distraction from everyone’s effort to focus on the path forward.
    I commend you for putting yourself out there for the brand, seeing things as they are and letting commenters speak their minds even when you’ve done nothing personally to provoke them. Here’s to always having a clear head, thick skin and focusing on what truly matters. -Matt

  • Anastasiy — 9:27 PM on April 09, 2010

    If there were no Adobe and Photoshop – there won’t be any Apple and their so-called clean design. Even their site is made using the Adobe products.
    Great move from CTO! I hope, Apple will understand that they are not an alone Androgyne in a vacuum and still need an ecosystem to work in.

  • Marcos Arruda — 10:44 PM on April 09, 2010

    That´s say it all: Windows 7 + linux + OSX + Win Phone 7 + Android + blackberry + Symbian OR JUST iPhone + iPad. — I’m going to get option 1. #AIR

  • AnonoFlasher — 11:07 PM on April 09, 2010

    I can’t believe Adobe isn’t putting up a fight. While I agree CS5 is way more than this one feature and I will upgrade for many other reasons, I was so looking forward to using Flash and a mature, clean language like AS3 for the Apple platform. Objective C does require an all-in investment and lockin to a proprietary system.
    I wish Adobe had some balls and fought back. This is the stuff of anti-trust lawsuits in the making and the EU might do something but everyone in the US is such an Apple fanboy and the politicians are in their pockets. What would make Apple great is a knock on the head letting them know they pushed it a bit too far this time.
    Either grow a pair Adobe and come out swinging, or just roll over and allow yourself to be bought by Apple and let them kill you (or the graphics on the Windows platform) already and get it over with.
    I can’t handle the bullshit any longer.

  • Dan — 12:17 AM on April 10, 2010

    I actually think Adobe have the right attitude – keep the release the same in case the rules change again, however unlikely that may be.
    I am an avid Apple user, and not a user of Flash, but this is something I don’t like one bit. It just antagonizes developers. If an app is bad, then people simply won’t use it. I see very little point in Apple applying these kind of restrictions.
    The App Store is full of crap as it is – I really don’t think the rule will change this.
    What worries me is whether Adobe will just not bother developing for the Mac in the future because of Apple’s attitude, and just tell people to install Windows. I do a lot of video work, and notwithstanding the Final Cut Studio (which is nice but hasn’t had a serious upgrade for ages) I still use Photoshop and AE a lot.

  • Nick Hampson — 1:49 AM on April 10, 2010

    I was always taught to look at the game plan not the play. I’m waiting to see what the bigger picture is, the future certainly isn’t developing for multiple devices one by one.
    I thought the Photoshop killer comment was great, wasn’t that Expression Design :-)
    Aperture, FCS, the follow up to Shake all had dev teams cut to help out with consumer products, in fact many key ‘new features’ came out of the consumer area, cut and paste is sooo cool.
    Fact is it doesn’t matter what anyone says or does Apple is focussed on consumers as their cash cow.

  • Frank Abagnale — 6:08 AM on April 10, 2010

    I concur… nobody lives forever and The Steve has had some Near Death experiences.
    What I’m wondering is how Apple will change course without Him at the Helm?
    Is Adobe due for a new CEO and/or CTO?
    It looks like two battleships firing shots across the bow and I sure hope they don’t misfire and sink each other?

  • Frank Abagnale — 6:15 AM on April 10, 2010

    I concur… nobody lives forever and The Steve has had some Near Death experiences.
    What I’m wondering is how Apple will change course without Him at the Helm?
    Is Adobe due for a new CEO and/or CTO?
    It looks like two battleships firing shots across the bow and I sure hope they don’t misfire and sink each other?

  • David — 7:10 AM on April 10, 2010

    Halfway through the headline, I thought this article was about some sort of Photoshop filter that would convert daylight balanced flash to tungsten.

  • Emily Litella — 7:43 AM on April 10, 2010

    What is all this fuss I hear about the Supreme Court decision on a “deaf” penalty? It’s terrible! Deaf people have enough problems as it is!
    (That’s Death penalty, Ms. Litella, not deaf… death.”
    Oh, that’s very different… (meekly) Never mind.

  • Tom — 8:29 AM on April 10, 2010

    Adobe cannot have its employees representing themselves as such while proclaiming that their views are not those of their employer. While those persons are using Adobe-sanctioned sites (blogs.adobe.com), they should behave with decorum. Case in point: Lee Brimelow’s infantile, offensive ranting in “Apple Slaps Developers In The Face.” Address the problem, because it is truly a problem and likely to become more of a problem for Adobe if such abuses continue.

  • John Goodhew — 9:42 AM on April 10, 2010

    I think this discussion has become littered with how people are “feeling”, so let me tell you what I think.
    Successful companies such as Apple and Adobe do not intentionally shot themselves in the foot. If one company or the other has made a poor business decision which will impact their profitability, then that decision will be addressed and a corrective action will be taken.
    Your suggestion that consumers may be forced to choose between Adobe and Apple is not one to be seriously considered.

  • Matt — 12:24 PM on April 10, 2010

    It seems that Steve Jobs and Apple are trying to find every way they can to piss off Adobe. And in the end it’s the users that suffer from all of this Apple hatred towards Adobe.
    You know what Apple does? Instead of collaborating more with Adobe to make Flash better they just go on to rant and bash it while Adobe is working hard to make it possible on the iPhone and other mobile devices.
    Yet Adobe itself is still kindly talking about Apple and being on the mac platform.
    They could abandon the mac platform and then what? Then all Apple will sell is iPhones, iPods and iPads. Which i really hope will not happen because between the two in this matter it seems Adobe has more class which is a shame because i’m an OS-X user.

  • Ken — 3:02 PM on April 10, 2010

    Somewhere hidden in the caverns of code,loansharking on Apple’s creeds, it is written, “It is forbidden to forbidden”.
    Ken in KY

  • J-Man — 8:17 PM on April 10, 2010

    Tom, you just don’t get it. Everyone is as mad as Lee Brimelow. He represents exactly how everyone at Adobe feels at some level, and how many developers feel outside. Even the media (who I thought Apple actually owned) are starting to write about this with Apple in a negative light, that is how big of a deal it is.
    The only people defending this move are the iDiots who believe all of the iPropaganda, including but not limited to “Adobe is lazy”, “Flash sucks”, “HTML5 can do anything Flash can”, and “Objective C is great to work with”, but even the most anti-Flash, hardcore iPhone developers have a least a nagging feeling of worry about what Apple will do to the TOS next.
    Bottom line, Lee Brimelow’s “slap in the face” title is right on. Actually it falls a little short of being accurate. Apple changing the terms on the eve of a CS5 launch without even warning Adobe is more of a kick in the ‘nads than slap in the face.

  • Civilian — 8:59 PM on April 10, 2010

    I think that by restricting Developers to a specific set of languages, Apple can somewhat ensure that developers target their platform specifically rather than have developers submit apps that are built for the lowest common denominator of mobile devices. I guess they don’t want to foster an environment that mirrors what’s on the web today. Most websites leave out a ton of features just because IE6 cannot support those features. I do believe that developers produce their best work when they target a specific platform and take advantage of the unique features that platform has to offer.
    It is also good business for Apple to maintain a base of developers that are “married” to their platform. Imagine an environment where most iPhone developers migrate to Flash CS5. In such an environment, if Apple releases enhancements to their frameworks, developers would have to wait for Adobe to integrate those changes into Flash before the developers could take advantage of Apple’s improvements.
    What if Google buys Adobe and decides CS6 will only come out on google chrome and Flash will only support Android? Apple and all developers that target iPhone OS get left in the dust!
    Let’s face it, we always have a choice of mobile phones but when it comes to graphics applications, Adobe is a very strong monopoly. I’d be cautious siding with them on an issue such as this. It may not end well. How much is the web premium suite again? Do you think we would have to pay that much if Adobe and Macromedia never merged?
    Adobe is a behemoth. IPhone devs may not be able to use Flash but I’ll bet my last dollar that 99.9999999876% of all graphic content you’ll see on Apple, Sony, Microsoft, Palm & Android devices as well as the web will be created using Adobe’s tools. Isn’t that enough?
    I don’t necessarily have an issue with Adobe’s goal of making flash an indispensable tool but I do think that a lot of comments in the blogosphere wrongly suggest that Adobe may have altruistic motives. Adobe’s goal isn’t to give developers choice; it is to maintain and extend the dominance Flash currently enjoys. Apple’s goal isn’t to limit developers choice but rather to ensure that their platform doesn’t become just another deployment target for Flash.
    Consider the following: 
    If a developer uses Flash, who becomes responsible for performance tuning? The developer or Flash? 
    My guess is Flash.
    If Flash achieves 65% penetration into the iPhone development market? Who becomes responsible for how efficient Flash generated byte code runs on iPhone?
    My guess is Apple because end users will not attribute sucky performance to Adobe but to Apple. 
    Both companies are right so there really is no need for Adobe evangelists to pretend this is a fight about open vs closed.
    I bet the blogs on here will have a totally different tone if MS/Google/Apple release free tools that allow developers to deploy their apps as Flash files. We will not hear all the clamoring for choice on the developers behalf.

  • Niklas — 1:26 AM on April 11, 2010

    My recommendation for you would be HTML5 apps with LocalStorage to avoid vendor lock-in. It already has support on multiple devices, will not require much re-learning from normal web app development and with the added bonus that you can roll out updates even easier because one update will immediately be available to every user.

  • Mark Alan Thomas — 1:27 AM on April 11, 2010

    I just think Apple remembers the slap in the face of Adobe refusing to support Rhapsody, plus years of shoddy Flash for Mac releases, and have learned that it sucks being at the mercy of a third party software company which doesn’t respect the platform.
    [It’s funny: As I recall, the original Rhapsody proposals would have had Adobe & other companies completely rewrite their products essentially as <a href="NeXT apps, running in a cross-platform framework made by Apple. Now today I read a quote from Steve Jobs saying, “We’ve been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform.” So, you’re brilliantly having it both ways, saying that Adobe deeply wronged Apple by failing to support what Apple now apparently sees as a terrible idea. Well played! –J.]
    Apple is doing Adobe a favor here. Apple handed Adobe a platform for PostScript in the 80s. Now they’re handing Adobe yet another new platform to develop for. Adobe can whine about not being able to contaminate it with Flash, or they can bite the bullet and do it right by writing great native iPad apps they can be proud of.

  • Niklas — 1:37 AM on April 11, 2010

    I really want to promote your comment because it is very rational and I fully agree with you. I want to add on thing related to “the blame game” that happens if some not-so-good code runs on a certain platform: Microsoft experienced just that when so many developers used undocumented features in WIndows that Microsoft had no option but to continue supporting all these hacks because everyone blamed Microsoft when updates broke those popular applications.

  • Randyckay — 4:24 AM on April 11, 2010

    Alas many Apple “followers” are more and more behaving like sect followers, rejecting everything that comes from out of their sect or what contradicts what their guru declared. Mr. Jobs just killed most (thank God not all) of his followers personality and to discuss certain matters in a civilisedd way.

  • Christopher — 7:11 AM on April 11, 2010

    As a Flash developer who has been working on a number of apps for the CS5 to iPhone shell, I can say that I’m extremely disappointed –BUT, I do have to agree with Civilian. He’s right on almost every single point, and short of a mutual partnership between Adobe and Apple I don’t see these arguments changing.

  • ms — 7:12 AM on April 11, 2010

    LR not Aperture was first profesional 64 bit app on mac for photographers.
    Adobe do pretty good work. But Flash is quit horrible. I would like to see some workflow base on html 5 for publishing.
    Personaly i would like to see flash as a tool for cartoon animation than tool for making close propietary format. (bone animation etc..)
    But Apple dont play nice.

  • zero — 8:46 AM on April 11, 2010

    Really, its amazing to see such a fuss. Adobe has proved lazy toward the Mac platform for years. And to be fair Apple haven’t exactly made it easy for Adobe either. Nonetheless the fact remains Adobe has treated Mac users as second class citizens for quite some time.
    I for one am glad to see Adobe in a position requiring action.
    Oh and if push came to shove – I’m with Apple.

  • Randyckay — 9:00 AM on April 11, 2010

    The problem with Apple is that it wants Adobe to kneel down in front of it and say: Hail to the Master , to the Leader, Apple.

  • Wilhelm Reuch — 9:37 AM on April 11, 2010

    The day Adobe decided it was a platform vendor first. That day it set itself up as a direct competitor to Apple.
    Those of us who’s been around for a while remember the actions and politics of Adobe when they considered OSX a dying platform. I am sure some people at Apple also remember this. Calling Adobe “lazy” is nothong compared to what Adobe was saying (and doing to) Apple at that time.
    I dont understand what the fuss is all about. Nothing has changed on OSX.
    We are talking about a resource-limited consumer device. Of course Apple needs to have much stricter guideline. As for Flash for this device – Apple clearly said “no thanks”. Despite this Adobe went ahead with what Kevin Lynch himself called “getting Flash in the backdoor”. How can anyone be surprised by yet another “no thanks” from Apple? Apple was event decent enough to do it before the product was shipping so developers know the rules.
    From a technical point Apple is absolutely correct. On this type of device they need to be in control. The decision to say no to Flash may be wrong or right – but it is their decision to make. But given that they are going for their own silicon to get the efficiency they want (A4) – I’d say they need control of the software stack.
    And Adobe platform model with Flash looks more like what Microsoft is playing with Windows. And there are plenty of players in their team – they dont need Apple.
    Remember as I said. Nothing has changed on OSX. This is about a device which a consumer appliance. Not a generic computer for running photoshop.

  • Anonymous — 9:43 AM on April 11, 2010

    Adobe can enable developers to start a project with Apple’s standard development tools, import their project into Flash CS5 to create a Flash application, and then export their project completely as C, C++, or Objective-C source code. The developer can then finish, compile, and sign their application using all of Apple’s developer tools, libraries, and compilers, and this workflow satisfies the stipulations placed in the current developer license

  • Mighty Mouse — 11:24 AM on April 11, 2010

    Here’s to hoping Adobe Flex and/or Air will be the Mighty Mouse who Saves The Day with iPhone/iPad issues…
    (raising glass in toast to peace and harmony)

  • J-Man — 11:48 AM on April 11, 2010

    Apple tied Adobe’s hands in terms of FlashPlayer’s performance by not offering the flexibility and access to the HW acceleration and APIs that QuickTime enjoys. Not Adobe’s fault and again Apple controlling things to the point of hurting its developers, or at least some of them.
    The whole iPhone/3.1.1/Objective C thing is a redo from the time of Rhapsody, only this time the only difference is that Apple thinks they can get away with it, or even worse, Apple faces commoditization if they don’t get app developer lock-in.
    Adobe applications are what has kept Apple on life support before the iPod, as there are a lot of creative art departments out there who have been buying Macs against all business logic when no one in the general public really cared, so if anything there should be a symbiotic relationship. Adobe might have said no to ridiculous requests from Apple in the past, but these transgressions pale in comparison to what is going on today.
    But hey, you are likely an iPhone developer/lover and I am a Flash guy who uses a Blackberry and Windows 7. I know I have my own best interests in mind, as likely do you. As disappointed as I am that I can’t publish out 50 Flash shovelware apps for the iPhone next month, I can take comfort that I will be able to eventually do this for EVERY other smartphone on the market, and I will be able to watch Apple’s market share only go down from here as I do it.

  • Mark Alan Thomas — 8:14 PM on April 11, 2010

    Actually, I think they’re just saying, “Don’t use Flash. Do it right.”

  • Mark Alan Thomas — 8:24 PM on April 11, 2010

    What is this inane insistence on putting crappy Flash apps onto the iPad? Why not do it properly? Is that so hard or unreasonable?

  • Mark Alan Thomas — 8:31 PM on April 11, 2010

    I don’t own an iPhone or an iPod, but I do have an iPad on order, so yeah, my position is definitely self-serving. I don’t want this new platform to turn into a ghetto of cross-platform apps. Lowest Common Denominator Syndrome blows.
    I want the iPad platform to remain pure.

  • Mark Alan Thomas — 10:58 PM on April 11, 2010

    If Carbon/Cocoa didn’t matter, Apple wouldn’t be killing Carbon at great inconvenience to Adobe and to itself. But it does matter. It’s critical.
    [It matters in the sense that Apple is very good (ruthless, even) at dropping support for some things in order to focus on others. They’ve de-invested in Carbon in order to focus their resources elsewhere.
    Whatever the merits of Carbon vs. Cocoa (and yes, each has some), and even assuming just for the sake of argument that they’re equal, you could simply contend that supporting two parallel technologies vs. one is a mistake. I’ve never questioned that reasoning, publicly or privately. What I object to is people wagging their fingers at us without knowing the facts. Cocoa isn’t magic fairy dust, and I don’t have time to discuss all that again (and again).
    By the way, Mark, as you’ve been coming here for more than two years and trumpeting the joys of Cocoa despite never having done any software development yourself, please let me caution you–in the friendliest, most constructive way possible–against speaking outside the realm of your expertise. I simply don’t have time to add a correction to each of your comments & will act accordingly. –J.]

  • zero — 11:18 PM on April 11, 2010

    Agreed Mark.

  • Jason — 11:27 PM on April 11, 2010

    Finally some sane, objective thinking on this topic.
    It’s worth noting Adobe has billions of dollars invested in the Macromedia (Flash) purchase and will push Flash solutions at all cost.
    [No, we won’t. –J.]

  • Mark Alan Thomas — 12:19 AM on April 12, 2010

    [It’s funny: As I recall, the original Rhapsody proposals would have had Adobe & other companies completely rewrite their products essentially as a cross-platform framework made by Apple. Now today I read a quote from Steve Jobs saying, “We’ve been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform.” So, you’re brilliantly having it both ways, saying that Adobe deeply wronged Apple by failing to support what Apple now apparently sees as a terrible idea. Well played! –J.]
    Well it’s official. You have no idea whatsoever what you’re talking about. This explains why you never make any sense when the issue of Carbon vs Cocoa comes up, and it explains (sort of) why you don’t see anything wrong with a Flash app crapping all over OS X or the iPad. It’s totally wrong to imply that a native NeXT/Rhapsody app would have been same kind of cross-platform compromise as Flash on OS X or the iPad simply because the OpenStep framework was portable to other systems. If that’s what you even mean. What do you mean? I sort of doubt at this point that you even know what OpenStep is. What in the hell are you talking about?
    When Jobs says “we’ve been there before,” he’s not talking about NeXT/Rhapsody/OSX apps in their native environment. I’m basically shocked you would even suggest such a thing. You seriously have no clue what you’re talking about do you? If anything Jobs is talking about OpenStep on NT or Sun systems. Who are you and what have you done with John Nack?
    And if you’re saying that Adobe’s new “Cocoa” CS apps don’t seem any different than the Carbon CS apps I basically shudder. What did you guys do — write the whole GUI in BS Lua or Adobe-f*ing-AIR for the love of god? The GUI is critical to a Cocoa app looking and feeling like a Cocoa app. Critical. How can you not understand this?
    Can it be? Did Adobe finally move to Cocoa and still not do it right?
    Oh I shudder if this is so.
    [I’m sorry, Mark, but beyond my other replies to you in this thread I just don’t have time to continue the discussion. –J.]

  • Mark Alan Thomas — 12:33 AM on April 12, 2010

    By the way, Mark, as you’ve been coming here for more than two years and trumpeting the joys of Cocoa despite never having done any software development yourself, please let me caution you–in the friendliest, most constructive way possible–against speaking outside the realm of your expertise. I simply don’t have time to add a correction to each of your comments & will act accordingly. –J.]
    Let me understand. The guy who thinks that craptastic Flash panels feel like native GUI elements is suggesting that I’m speaking outside the realm of my expertise?
    [Where did I say that? I’ve said that Flash panels have a great many things to recommend them. I’ve never said that they use native OS widgetry. –J.]
    John, if you’re threatening to censor my attempts to shine a light on your despicable campaign of corporate spin and misinformation, I pity you and Adobe.
    How did you fall so low?
    Sad.
    [Listen, man: I’m just saying that I don’t have time to indulge in an eternal pissing contest with you about how great Cocoa is, how Adobe is comprised of a bunch of blinkered philistines who clearly failed to get its majesty and power years ago, how Apple only ever used Carbon out of some misguided sense of solidarity with third parties (and not because it has any merits), blah blah blah. Who cares at this point?
    Here’s what matters now: Photoshop CS5 is a 64-bit Cocoa app, and a great one. So are After Effects and Premiere Pro. We can all be happy now & move on.
    As to the subject of standard OS look and feel (from which Apple diverges continuously) vs. custom look and feel, I’ve written a bunch and may yet write more, as it’s a genuinely interesting, nuanced subject. I *did* tell you repeatedly not to expect that moving to Cocoa would magically change anything–just as the move didn’t change the appearance and behavior of Finder on Snow Leopard. Such efforts are orthogonal to doing the Cocoa work. –J.]

  • Randy — 1:14 AM on April 12, 2010

    Like Aperture which killed Lightroom!

  • Randy — 1:20 AM on April 12, 2010

    So totally agree with you. Beautiful Adobe applications. No flash or any “existential” problems whatsoever!

  • some random guy — 7:30 AM on April 12, 2010

    all you apple fanboys and girls might wanna stop reading from here and skip to the next comment :P
    As a flash developer i have to say i am a bit disapointed about apples new rule as this prevents me from publishing games on the appStore, but that dosnt mean that the exporter is useless. There are tons of jailborken iPhones out there so you can probably still publish your flash games to those.
    when it comes to preformance you cant blame apple nor adobe its entirly up to the developer how well he or she optimize their product.
    As a flash developer i have to say i am a bit disapointed about apples new rule as this prevents me from publishing games on the appStore, but that dosnt mean that the exporter is useless. There are tons of jailborken iPhones out there so you can probably still publish your flash games to those.

  • Mark Salamango — 11:47 AM on April 12, 2010

    My thoughts exactly, there are a million jail broken phones that would love to make use of the new CS5 libs.

  • get a life jobs! — 3:41 PM on April 12, 2010

    Steve Jobs should have just died of his cancer long ago. Eat away cancer come back jobs needs to be put to pasure out of his Cult following misery. APPLE is nothing but a cult I sat through 3 hours of a stupid job seminar felt worse than sitting through an amway meeting!

  • get a life jobs! — 3:42 PM on April 12, 2010

    Steve Jobs should have just died of his cancer long ago. Eat away cancer come back jobs needs to be put to pasture out of his Cult following misery. APPLE is nothing but a cult I sat through 3 hours of a stupid job seminar felt worse than sitting through an amway meeting!

  • cen — 5:46 PM on April 12, 2010

    i am a developer. i work in the healthcare industry and was planning to develop several medical-grade applications in flash.
    the plan was to also port these to the appstore so that doctors could access and review media on a large-sized tablet interface.
    with a single codebase.
    that was the plan at least and the best way to make a truly stable and standardized application.
    apple has essentially locked me out of the most ideal option for this — which was to use flash for the cross-platform interface.
    as a result, i highly doubt i will be able to support apple’s device as intended without significant amounts of additional labor.
    what a shame, especially being in healthcare.
    apparently nobody commenting on your blog is an actual developer from what i see and have no understanding of the situation.
    the situation being entirely political.
    this is just as bad as mindless following of the democratic or republican parties without understanding what is being argued.
    i suppose this is what the adults meant by “children are to be spoken to; and reply when instructed” when i was that age.
    full disclosure: i write code in C, Objective-C, C++, AS3, C#, and several assembly architectures. i own a macbook and have Adobe Flex installed on it.

  • Wilson — 7:41 PM on April 12, 2010

    I’m surprised to hear so much backlash against apple. Anyone that steps back and takes an independent and objective look at the situation should understand that Apple is attempting to maintain a high quality experience. Allowing something like flash to become a “standard” authoring environment will spiral totally out of control. Why on earth would apple want this garbage on the iPhone? Get some real skills folks. Flash needs to die– if you don’t understand this By now then that pretty much says it all.

  • Wiilson — 8:02 PM on April 12, 2010

    Right on civilian.A+ . I’ll be using Photoshop, illustrator and fireworks – not flash developing apps.

  • Pissed Mac Developer — 8:37 PM on April 12, 2010

    Why do you assume that apps written in flash would be garbage? I seriously doubt if you can tell the flash apps from the non-flash apps on the iphone.
    And if the apps really are garbage, let the user decide with their wallet.
    The backlash against Apple is because developers understand that it’s B.S. and hurts the iPhone/iPad/iTouch ecosystem. There is no technical reason, no quality reason, no reason at all other than Steve throwing his latest tantrum.

  • FreakFactory — 1:35 AM on April 15, 2010

    So after reading all comments and many other Blogs about all this “APPLE vs ADOBE fight” I thought I might give my opinion on this situation as a MAC & ADOBE fanboy.
    Like I said I’m a BIG apple fan and a BIG Adobe CS fan I’m Kinda worried about what could come out with all this going on.
    As Web designer and Grafikdesigner Adobe CS is a BIG MUST for me (and I love it and it can’t be compared to GIMP, Paint Pro ect.).
    And I m a mac user because I simply love the way it’s done and Programmed and I simply hate Windows (Viruses, Bug, ect.) but I’m not here to say why I hate Win. and why I love MAC. =)
    I think simply that APPLE is getting a bit cocky (YES a fan boy admitted that) because of there HUGE success in the past Year (with the Iphone, New MACs and IPAD), but still they continue doing a amazing work and common even the people here Hating on APPLE have to admit that Apple does and did a AWsome job, you simply can’t deny that.
    But again I don’t get WHY apple is mad a Adobe because It is true that 60% of all mac users Are Designers or in general people that use Adobe CS.
    And Adobe is maybe lazzy but they bring a Awesome product (except for Dreamweaver, I m just saying ^^) and since CS 2 not much has changed except for some small features, that’s why every body say they are lazy.
    I think MAC simply had a small problem with adobe FLASH (and can understand why. I m not much of a FLASH fan ether and I do FlashWebsites) and this SMALL flash problem is just gotten bigger and bigger and bigger because of the Million’s of Iphone and Now IPAD users that want FLASH, now APPLE had to SAY (even if it wasn’t there intension) why they don’t want to support Adobe Flash on the Iphone and Ipad and now Adobe wasn’t happy (I fully understand why)….
    I think apple isn’t solving the problem by Blocking Flash on their devices because HTML 5 won’t come just like that it need’s time, and I personly think that while HTML5 isn’t a standard they should add FLASH support on their devices.
    I personly love HTML5 but think that it needs some time until the WorlWideWeb is upTodate but in the mean while Flash is the Leader.
    and A leader deserves to be supported ;)….
    To conclude I think APPLE should add Flash Support and work WITH adobe to bring a Great product out.
    Adobe is Awesome
    Mac Is Awesome
    so they both should support etch other ;)..
    I simply hope that Adobe doesn’t stop Developing for MacPlatform because that would be a HUGE mistake…
    And we should simply stop acting like we know better on what’s going on these guys know what there doing and what will come out we will see soon.
    PS Adobe CS5 I AWESOME ^^ and IPAD too!
    Hope U agree on my opinion.
    peace

  • FreakFactory — 1:53 AM on April 15, 2010

    I forgot to mention I do agree with MAC about blocking Flash in their AppStore because of the MIllions of crappy Apps.. We have to face the fact that Flash isn’t the best think for Apps. but Flash is a cool tool to create Animated Websites (it’s even the best for that) but not to do Proper and Professional Apps.
    I just think Apple should support Flash in safari but NOT More…
    But other wise no FLASH in AppStore!

  • FreakFactory — 2:15 AM on April 15, 2010

    Found this on comment by ISYNIC and I think this the perfect description of the situation he wrote:
    Honestly, the back and forth is starting to look unprofessional for both companies. If you can’t sort out your differences, tell us what they are and why you can’t or won’t compromise. Otherwise, we really don’t care or want to hear about it. If Apple has concerns, address them or don’t. But don’t just play this PR tennis match to determine blame.
    It’s pretty obvious why you would want Flash on the platform. Unfortunately for you, it’s equally obvious why Apple doesn’t want Flash on the platform in its current state. And most of their reasons are good enough that I don’t want it on there either until you can prove to us that you can do it right. Unfortunately, I’d say as far as Mac users are concerned you have yet to ‘do it right’ even once.
    With the A4 processor, Apple is moving towards an ultra-efficient model for its portable devices. It’s a true power sipper. But speaking from experience – Flash gobbles processor cycles for breakfast – especially on Mac OS. The port of Flash for Mac OS is slower than its Windows version by several orders of magnitude – making older Macs obsolete even for browsing HD Flash content. Just because Flash can run – doesn’t mean it’s satisfactory. Apple recently released the statistic that the majority of all application crashes in Mac OS X are caused by the Flash plug-in. Ouch.
    How, in good conscience, can Apple open their device for you to port a potentially battery gulping, processor hogging content platform that requires access to core aspects of the OS (compromising security)?
    Let’s see some benchmarks. Let’s see what you can do with it. Release your own Webkit based browser with flash built in. Give us status updates. If Apple is stone-walling you and you’re making legitimate progress – tell us. But as far as I can tell, they’re not. You’re just unwilling to put the proper work into a product before pushing it out the door (a la Mac Flash on OS X).

  • Claudius Coenen — 2:13 AM on April 17, 2010

    I have never thought of that fact. The language lock-in really is strong for beginning developers. Large Companies could still employ specialists for either language.
    I can’t fully follow your point of view on the apple vs. all platforms conclusion. In my opinion, you’ll have to deliver different applications for desktop and mobile anyway, so it would not hurt that much to have two seperate languages, if it really benefits your application.
    Then again, having one codebase, one internal business-logic, for all variants of an application would be awesome.

  • Claudius Coenen — 2:25 AM on April 17, 2010

    when did MS tell you, which browser to use? They shipped one with windows, but you always(1) had the choice to install another one to use.
    IE has alway been my favorite browsert to download firefox ;-)
    1) (that is, besides windows update in its early days, which had to use IE)

  • Petter — 3:56 PM on April 23, 2010

    What an inaccurate and offensive post.
    However the engine in Aperture could probably be used for heavier photo-editing.
    However they could hardly out place a single inch of Illustrator, InDesign, InCopy and so on. Quark is usable but will hardly replace the more creative or artistic, and popular tools from Adobe. AE is also very usable and valuable to the Apple users.
    I’m thankful and looking forward to the new CS5 suits for OS X. Let’s see if they can sort out the Flash (Player) mess too.

  • Petter — 4:28 PM on April 23, 2010

    I don’t care what the apps looks like, that would be like saying Lotus Notes aren’t allowed because it has it’s own UI-model / is Eclipse based. It’s freaking retarded. You can use native Cocoa elements for your Java apps so it behaves perfectly as a native Cocoa app, (it’s possible even though they dropped their javabridge, Cyberduck is an such example) but who cares it’s the programs functionality that is important, I’d rather have an app that uses X11 APIs then not an app at all. A UI doesn’t do any good.
    Apple obviously has no problems with cross-platform frameworks even if it did divested itself from that market. That’s obviously for just to spend their resources on other things.
    Apple will allow cross-platform frameworks on the iPhone just wait and see, or see every other app and every game in the world disappear from the App store. Not likely…

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